Nazariah Interview w/Frederic Patenaude & Commentaries by Jinjee & Rhio & Readers

Rhio’s
RAW ENERGY HOTLINE
SEPTEMBER, 2004
(212) 343-1152
www.rawfoodinfo.com

Everything is for the eye these days – TV, Life, Look, the movies.
Nothing is just for the mind. The next generation will have
eyeballs as big as cantaloupes and no brain at all.

—Fred Allen
Comedian & Radio Show Host circa 1940s

1) Two documentaries worth seeing.

2) Two interesting and informative websites with corresponding newsletters

3) Frederic Patenaude’s controversial interview with Nazariah of the Essene Church WITH commentaries from both Jinjee and me (Rhio.)

1) Two documentaries, Outfoxed and Control Room show how the news media today doesn’t just report the news objectively as it is mandated to do, but how instead it molds, shapes, distorts and invents the news to suit it’s own (or someone’s) agenda. This is why we (the public) end up with some of the erroneous and false opinions that we hold. The news should be about facts and truth. These two documentaries shed some light on the realities of the present day news media. Because the mainstream media is failing so woefully in its mandate (to actually be “fair and balanced”), in the last year or two, there are a slew of documentaries being made to try to present a more balanced and accurate picture and to make us aware of the disinformation of our daily news. Interesting, isn’t it? It seems that facts and truth have to find a way out, when blocked from one channel, they ooze out another.

2) Two valuable sources of health information:

Val Archer’s free e-mail newsletter, Healing With Living Foods, gives guidance and inspiration on how to include raw and living foods in your lifestyle. Val writes in a uniquely enjoyable way, always positive, makes you feel good.

To subscribe, go to: http://eatsprouts.com/menu.html

To read archives, go to:

http://gogreen.org/cgi-gogreen/dada/mail.cgi?f=list&l=health

Health Freedom Resources, is another free newsletter and website with lots of great information for the health seeker. The website address is: www.healthfree.com and you can sign up for the newsletter at the lower right hand corner of the page. There are also archives that you can peruse.

3) Dear Readers, 

Recently an interview with Nazariah appeared in an email newsletter sent out to the raw/live food community by Frederic Patenaude. This interview has stirred up a lot of controversy on the issues raised and also some fear about being 100% raw. I believe that it is constructive and positive for the raw community to be thinking about, investigating and discussing these issues. As a community, we are still pioneers in going back to and reclaiming our natural diet, and as pioneers, we also can make plenty of mistakes while in the process of working everything out.

I was receiving a lot of email from people wanting me to express my views on the various issues and I was preparing to do so, but in the meantime Jinjee’s commentary on the interview arrived in my email which covered many of the points that I was going to make. (Jinjee’s website: www.thegardendiet.com)

So, for the purpose of presenting alternative views, ideas, thoughts, and experiences, Jinjee’s commentary together with the original interview, plus a few comments of my own are presented below.

Because the entire original interview is a long one and somewhat repetitive, and the commentaries make it even longer, I’ll be sending this email in several parts over the next couple of weeks. Rhio

Nazariah Intervew with Frederic Patenaude, March 2004, Plus Separate Commentaries from Jinjee and Rhio

Jinjee: This critique of Nazariah’s interview with Fred Patenaude is in response to the many emails I have received from people saying they are now afraid to try to go 100% raw. My intent is not to prove Naz wrong but rather to show that it is possible to be entirely healthy long-term on a well-balanced 100% raw-vegan non-supplemented diet.

Here is my initial response, followed by the interview with my commentary. Please feel free to share this and distribute it freely.

Re. Naz’s article, even though my personal experience has been opposite to his and I and everyone in my immediate family seem to thrive ridiculously on a non-supplemented 100% raw vegan diet, I think that Naz’s points may have some validity. Here’s the thing he wrote that really grabbed me:

Naz: “But you don’t just go from a meat eating species to all of a sudden being a vegan species without a lot of traumatic problems. So I advise a more intermediate step. Let’s first evolve into being vegetarians for a number of generations, then let’s evolve into veganism and let evolution happen in that way”.

Jingee: This is interesting because it shows that deep down inside he still believes in the “rightness” of veganism. He believes that this is where we will “evolve” to eventually. I believe that I and my family will always thrive on a 100% raw vegan diet and I don’t anticipate any problems and I believe that we will always be 100% raw vegan. But perhaps it is “belief” that is the key here. If we believe that we will thrive, we will. If we are looking for a way out of the diet, if we don’t really want to do it, then that is the information that will come to us. There is plenty of “evidence” to support both sides of the issue.

Science is still in its infancy, and therefore very inaccurate, especially in the fields of nutrition, biology and medicine which are largely supported by multi-billion dollar profit-motivated corporate interests. The truth on these matters is very difficult to get at and discern. My answer to this problem is to go with your own personal experience. Try it. If it works for you, it works. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. You have to take it back to basic common sense. You have to trust your own experience more than you trust anything you see in print.

My friend Anahata believes that the raw vegan diet is only for those who need to vibrate on a higher frequency to do their work in the world. She believes that different types of work require you to vibrate on different frequencies, and that this requires different diets.

Quantum Physics illustrates a new scientific discovery that the smallest central part of a molecule is able to be directed by our will, and responds to our expectations. This gels with my spiritual outlook that we co-create reality with God. We have a much smaller but very powerful and important part in this creativity. And I wonder sometimes if maybe the collective consciousness of humankind on this planet is in a quantum way even changing the very molecular structure of foods and chemicals, affecting what kind of a diet is the healthiest!

March, 2004
by Frederic Patenaude

First Experiences With the Raw Vegan Diet

Deaths in the Raw-Vegan Movement

Frederic: What is your background with the raw-vegan diet?

Naz: I’m 46 now and I’ve been a vegetarian since I was 17. At that age, I not only became a vegetarian but also a raw-foodist. I included raw dairy into my diet because I had met an elderly Essene teacher who recommended that. Historically, that used to be the Essene diet. The Essenes, for the most part, were not vegans. They were vegetarians, and many of them were raw-foodists, but they ate fermented dairy products – yogurt and kefir. So that was my diet for 7 years. During that time, I did great – no problems at all.

Then, when I had moved to another location, I became very attracted to the vegan philosophy, because it is a beautiful philosophy. I then became a raw-vegan.

After 5 years on a raw-vegan diet, I lost the ability to walk. All of my extremities – my hands, my fingers and my feet – were in such pain that I couldn’t move. I had central nervous system problems and I was B12 anemic. All of that happened after 5 years on a raw-vegan diet.

Jinjee’s Note: Naz experienced B12 deficiency. He is the first case I have personally heard of that has become B12 deficient on the raw-vegan diet. Statistically far more meat-eaters suffer from B12 deficiency than vegetarians, vegans, and raw-fooders. A recent Tufts study – see footnotes for website address – shows 40% of Americans are B12 deficient. Less than 10% of Americans are vegetarian.

Rhio: Naz says he did great with a little fermented dairy. I believe this confirms Dr. Ann Wigmore’s philosophy of adding fermented products to the diet. For those who want to stick with vegan — it can be accomplished just as easily with nut and seed yogurts and kefirs, seed cheese, rejuvelac and sauerkraut. Of course Dr. Wigmore wasn’t the originator of fermented products, which have been used by many civilizations since ancient times, but she brought them to the forefront and made them an integral part of her healing program. Unfortunately, many natural hygienists do not believe in using fermented products because they say that the food is rotting. I respond by saying that while the food could become spoiled by fermenting for too long (which leads to decomposition) while the food is still in the young fermenting stage (the period that it should be consumed) it is a viable, valuable source of enzymes and many nutrients, including Vit. B12.

Recently I became aware that Vit. B12 deficiency is also being caused by nitrous oxide emissions created by catalytic converters in cars. Apparently the levels of nitrous oxide now in the atmosphere can cause depletion of Vit. B12. There is an article on this by Dr. David Gregg on my website. Go to www.rawfoodinfo.com and look in the Articles Section under Health Information.

Naz: So I switched back to eating the raw fermented dairy products. At that point, being as nerve-damaged as I was, I also included eggs. I healed myself by reintroducing those products.

Jinjee’s Note: Perhaps the ideal raw-vegan diet might prove to be one that includes fresh raw organic goats milk as indicated in The Essene Gospel of Peace http://www.thegardendiet.com/essene …but Storm’s response to this is that no other adult animal in nature drinks the Mother’s milk of any animal so why would we need to? {Storm is Jinjee’s husband.} I think that if one eats a balanced raw vegan diet including fresh organic fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, salt and oils that one will get all the nutrients needed unless there is some extraordinary circumstance preventing normal digestion and absorption of such nutrients. Where else can nutrients come from? Any heating destroys the molecular structure of the nutrients, making them harmful to our bodies. And it is unsafe to eat animal products raw. Extracting nutrients from foods and synthetically creating supplements with them seems to me to be un-natural. I fully believe I can get all the nourishment I need from natural non-animal sources.

Rhio: People come from all kinds of backgrounds; city, suburban and country living situations, differing contacts with chemicals, pesticides and radiation in their home and workplace, different levels of health, different “former” diets, various stages of body toxicity and different ages at which they make the changeover to raw. As such, I believe that the “one size fits all” concept doesn’t work. Raw diets and lifestyles have to be tailored to the person and their situation. In many instances a body is so toxic and depleted that supplementation with food-based, low-heat processed supplements may be beneficial.

Naz: At that point, I was wondering whether this was an experience unique to myself, or whether other persons had had problems on the raw-vegan diet in the long-term. In the short term, you don’t have those sorts of problems. They’re nutritional deficiencies that take several years to manifest themselves.

Lack of Success in the Raw-Vegan Movement

So I did some research. I put a call out on the Internet at different raw food chat boards. Because I was one of the speakers at raw-food events when they were held, I got to hang out with the other noted raw-food speakers. I started realizing that problems like I’d had were rampant in the raw-vegan movement, but don’t get talked about.

When the people who lecture and write the books start themselves having problems on the diet, they hide that fact because they are earning their livings being a raw-food lecturer/author. I hate to say that, but it’s that way. I’ve seen it happen again and again, when I will personally know a famous raw-food speaker/teacher, and because I personally know them, I know that they are going through anxiety attacks, panic attacks, clinical depression, that they’re having pain in their joints, they’re losing their teeth – things like that. And yet, I’ll see them speak at a raw-food convention and they never mention any of the problems they’re actually experiencing. They just praise how perfect the raw food vegan diet is. And what happens is any time people are having problems on the raw-vegan diet, they get told that they’re just experiencing detox and cleansing. But that’s just a pat answer.

Jinjee’s Note: I have met many teachers in the raw-vegan movement, they have spent considerable time at our retreats, they have spoken candidly with us about their experiences, and I have not personally heard of any such problems.

Rhio: I have met many teachers of the raw philosophy also but I do have to agree here with Naz that some of them have had problems. But if they had problems to the degree that Naz had then they would not be able to hide it, since Naz said that he was completely disabled.

I was talking to one person once when he showed me all his “new” capped teeth in his mouth. A raw diet is not supposed to result in rotted teeth. This particular person made the changeover to raw as a fruitarian for a few years and though I tried to warn him, he did not listen to me. I believe that a fruitarian diet can dissolve the over acid condition of a body too fast and the acidity being released in the mouth tissues can damage the teeth. This particular person may have had weak teeth from heredity and his earlier diet. I have also met and spoken to many people who have lost their teeth on an “exclusively” fruitarian diet, and also people whose teeth become sensitive on an all fruit diet. The sensitivity may be a prelude to more serious problems with the teeth.

There are some groups of monkeys that eat all fruit and have no problems, (although I suspect that they eat green leaves too) but we must remember that the modern fruit that most humans eat is picked green and so has not had a chance to ripen on the tree and develop all its nutrient values. In a more health conscious and utopian world community, each family or block would have its own fruit orchard and therefore pick those fruits at the peak of their nutritional value.

I have also met fruitarian teachers who appear to be dehydrated and their skin is wrinkled and leathery. This is not my idea of a healthful picture.

Naz: Deaths in the Raw-Vegan Movement

Here, in the Eugene area, where I live, a man in the local raw-food support group died about two years ago. He was only in his forties. For two weeks before his death, he’d been telling the leader of that group that he was having bad chest pains, but she just kept telling him, “oh, it’s just detox, it’s just cleansing.”

Jinjee’s Note: Even on the raw diet you will still eventually (probably) get old and die. Perhaps in rare cases this can even be because of the diet. We are all so different in so many ways and health is dependent on so many many different factors. You have to be in tune with your body and feel whether the diet is working for you. If it isn’t, don’t do it! And yes, often complaints like this gentleman’s heart can be detox symptoms. However if it is your heart or one of your internal organs that is hurting painfully, get it checked out! The medical institution can be useful for diagnosis!

Rhio: It’s unfortunate that the raw community, for the most part, does not have the holistic raw food oriented and naturopathic doctors it needs to help guide people should they get in trouble. As teachers we can only guide people in the generalities of the raw/live food diet, but people can, for any number of reasons, get in trouble and need the services of a knowledgeable physician to help them through their health challenges. For example, recently in New York a raw food teacher who was for many years on the natural hygiene version of the diet, developed a serious itchy rash on her body which started on her calves and spread upward. Fortunately, she did go to a raw food oriented doctor who did some tests and discovered that she had an essential fatty acid deficiency. Natural hygienists do not believe in using oil, and she had not used oil, except occasionally, for many years. The solution to this problem was several tablespoons per day of flaxseed oil and over a period of time her condition normalized.

Frederic: And he had been into this for a long time?

Naz: Yes, for a long time. He was one of the founding members of the raw-food support group there. His doctor, when he died, told his wife (the man’s wife) that her husband had died of starvation. His body just starved to death, even though he was eating raw foods everyday. He wasn’t absorbing enough nutrients from it.

I was telling that story to a woman in Santa Monica who is part of a raw-food support group there, and she responded by saying: “Oh yeah, we recently had a guy who died the same way, and he wasn’t very old either. The doctor said that his body just starved for lack of nutrients.” Then I was telling another woman in Florida who’s member of a raw food support group there the same story about both these people, the one in Eugene and the one in Santa Monica, and she responded by saying, “Oh yeah, we’ve had two die that way.”

Jinjee’s Note: Would like to hear the specific stories. Remember, a lot of people come to the raw foods diet because they are already very sick, often terminally ill, as a last hope, and sometimes too late. If you get so skinny on the raw diet that you are starving you may need to include some Celtic Sea Salt and Cold Pressed Olive, Hemp and Flax oils in your diet, or a greater variety of fruits and vegetables, fatty fruits, water, and germinated nutmilks. The raw diet is the most nutrient dense diet on the planet. It should not lead to dying of starvation! These people may have been doing one of the many extreme fanatical versions of the raw diet in which they ate either no fruits or no vegetables, no oils or nuts, no water, or just not enough variety or quantity of good quality fresh organic food.

Rhio: It’s hard to comment without knowing the details of any particular situation… like flying blind. I agree with Jinjee that there is no diet that is more nutrient dense than the raw/live food diet. Perhaps, as she states, the people were doing the more restricted versions of the diet. I have seen many people become more and more restrictive with the diet, to their detriment. They keep eliminating food after food for one reason or another, until they are eating only a few things. I believe this is a mistake. I promote eating a WIDE variety of foods from all categories except meat, fish and dairy. I also recommend foraging for or growing some wild vegetables (usually called weeds) and including some of those in the daily diet.

How would the doctor know that the person starved to death for lack of nutrients? Did he do some tests? If so, what kind of tests did he do? Or did he just voice his prejudices when he learned that the person was on a raw diet?

Many people have Celiac Disease and don’t even know it. In this disease, gluten foods, like wheat, barley and rye, create a situation in the intestines which prevents nutrients from being absorbed.

Naz: Raw Vegan Fallacy #1: Protein

The more I got into looking into this, the more I found that a lot of the things that get preached in the raw-vegan movement just aren’t true. One has to do with protein. There is a real issue with getting enough protein. On a cooked food vegan diet, you tend to eat a lot of beans and grains, and that is a complete protein. But if a person is a raw-vegan, beans and grains would be sprouted, and most people don’t eat such a large amount of sprouts. Even if they do, as soon as you begin to sprout, the protein is converted into something else. So the protein content goes down. The vitamin content goes way up when you sprout, so there are some good things about sprouting. The vitamin content increases, but the protein decreases. So on a raw diet, you think you’re getting your protein from the little bit of fermented seed cheeses, but you can’t eat very much of that because it really clogs you up. So over a period of several years, people become really protein deficient.

Jinjee’s Note: I believe that it is very easy to buy into the protein myth which thousands of vegetarians, vegans and raw foodists have proven to be false. For instance my husband Storm has not consumed animal products in over 30 years and is not deficient in any way. You can go to http://www.thegardendiet.com/storm.html to see his photos. Mothers milk is 2.2% protein and babies double in size in six months consuming nothing but mother’s milk. Fruit is also 2.2% protein. Vegetables and nuts have even more protein. According to articles I found on the FDA website, cooked protein turns into free radicals that cause cancer. It has also been proven that you don’t need to eat all the amino acids at one sitting for a “complete protein”. Most fruits and vegetables do contain all the amino acids making a complete protein.

Naz: Protein is what rebuilds everything in our body. Everyday we’re losing billions of cells, and they have to be replaced. Well, it’s protein that is used by the body to rebuild all those things. So what happens is that over a period of time, the body just isn’t rebuilding all of that and you end up having nerve damage and different repercussions. That can happen even in the cooked-food vegan diet.

Jinjee’s Note: Celery is a nerve-cell re-builder. If you include enough celery or celery juice in your diet you will not end up with nerve damage, and you can even repair nerve damage.

Rhio: I seriously doubt that the raw food diet could cause a shortage of protein. More problems are created in a body by too much protein than too little. Dr. Schnitzer of Germany has written extensively about this in many of his books. All fruits and vegetables are LOADED with amino acids, and as most of us know, amino acids are the building blocks of protein. When a seed, bean or legume is sprouted it does not diminish its protein, (as Naz suggests) instead the protein is broken down into its simpler amino acid form. If a person eats meat or dairy, the body must first break down the protein in these products to amino acids before they can be utilized. The body builds thousands of different kinds of protein out of different formulations of amino acids. There is no such thing as an incomplete protein – this is simply a myth created by the meat and dairy industries who profit from people believing their propaganda. The body has an amino acid pool from which it draws to build proteins at any time. Unless a body is starving to death, it will always have amino acids to build the proteins it needs. The body also recycles 70% of its protein waste.

Naz: Longevity of Vegans

The biggest study on the true mortality rates of vegetarians and vegans was published recently, and the results were partly shown in Ahimsa Magazine, which is a vegan magazine. Even though the results were not good for the vegan movement, that vegan magazine said in an editorial that they felt that in fairness to the readers, they needed to publish the information.

The information was that even though we’ve been led to believe that vegans live longer, they actually live less long than many other dietary categories. Vegans have a high incidence of degenerative brain diseases – Alzheimer, dementia, and things of that nature.

In the past, all of the positive statistics about vegans, all the “less this” and the “less that,” all the good things that were taught in books like John Robbins’s Diet for a New America – all those statistics weren’t from studies from large groups of people who actually died. They were just extrapolated information. It was like, John Robbins would say, “Okay, fat is one of the things that cause heart disease. Vegans are eating 30% less fat, therefore they will die of 30% less heart disease” It was all theory. As it turns out, there are certain things that are good about the vegan diet – such as less fat, less cholesterol – but the problem is that there are certain deficiencies in the diet, even in the cooked-vegan diet, that actually cause vegans to have more of certain serious diseases, especially brain-related ones, because it’s all having to do with the central nervous system.

Jinjee’s Note: Insurance companies will give you lower rates if you are vegetarian, and even lower if you are vegan. If anyone has done their homework on health and longevity statistics it would be the insurance companies.

Fred: Are there other studies to back up your claim that vegans live less long than meat eaters?

Naz: See, over the years, I’ve read many studies that have caused me to come to this conclusion. But I’ve also spoken to many experts, such as Gabriel Cousens, who have clinical experience with vegans. But it goes back to the 1990’s, when Vegetarian Times, which is a major magazine, published the results of a study that was geared to just women, and tried to see which ones lived longer, between meat eaters, lacto-ovo vegetarians and vegan women. It turned out that the lacto-ovo vegetarians lived the longest, the meat eaters lived the next longest, and vegans lived the least long. And that was in Vegetarian Times approximately in 1990. So as the years went by and studies were done, it just became sort of overwhelmingly obvious that a lot of the things that we believe in the raw-food movement and the vegan movement literally aren’t verifiable by science, and science actually discredits a lot of these claims.

The good news is that a vegetarian diet, which includes some dairy and eggs, appears to be very healthy. That’s the good news, is that we can be healthy vegetarians. It’s extremely questionable whether very many of us can be healthy vegans. It might be possible, but that it doesn’t seem possible for the majority. The majority of vegans are actually not healthy.

Jinjee’s Note: Naz is perfectly correct in saying you can find articles to prove either side of any story. You can read scientific medical journals online and you’ll find plenty of conflicting evidence. There just isn’t enough true non-biased scientific study being done in the field of nutrition. Who would fund such studies? Organic farmers? Big business doesn’t benefit from the simple truths of health. My personal belief is that The Creator put everything here that we need to be totally 100% naturally healthy without needing to use or kill any animals.

Rhio: The study that Naz cites in Vegetarian Times was comparing vegans with the other two groups, but it wasn’t comparing raw food vegans specifically. I think there may be a huge difference between a raw food vegan and a cooked food vegan’s health. I have not seen the article but it doesn’t seem to be a study that applies to the raw food diet.

Naz: B-12 Deficiency

Most vegans are not getting enough B-12. It’s very important to take a B-12 supplement if you’re on a vegan diet, and a lot of vegans don’t. A lot of the sources vegans have believed they were getting their B12 from actually aren’t good. For instance, the blue-green algae, the spirulina, sea vegetables, all of those things are listed as having a lot of B12, but studies have shown that they’re analog B12, which can’t be utilized by the human body. Analog B-12 competes for receptor sites with the real usable B-12. It results that eating any of those things, it’s not only that you’re not getting the B-12 you think you’re getting, you’re actually going to get less, because the analog B-12 clings to the limited numbers of receptor sites in the body for real B12 – and then real B-12 can’t cling to it, because it’s already taken by the analog B-12. So, people who have been eating those things in the vegan movement thinking that it’s a natural source of B12 and that they don’t need to take a B-12 supplement, become very B-12 anemic.

Gabriel Cousens, a holistic M.D., has become very concerned about the B-12 issue and is now publishing the results of new research. He says that it’s been demonstrated that 80% of vegans become seriously B-12 deficient. He then lists the problems that can be related to B-12 deficiency, and it’s an incredible list of problems.

Jinjee’s Note: I believe that supplements are far inferior to foods. Hippocrates said “Make Food your Medicine”. If you simply can’t eat food, then take supplements. Otherwise, all the nutrients you need can be found in fresh fruits and vegetables, including B12. B12 is being found in more and more fruits and vegetables. According to Joel Robbins, M.D., N.D., D.C., PhD in Bio Chemistry, author of “Eating for Health and Wellness” B12 is found in:

Alfalfa leaves
Bananas
Comfrey leaves
Concord grapes and raisins
Ginseng
Hops
Mustard greens
Plums and prunes
Sprouts
Sunflower seeds
Wheatgrass

A very prominent healer was defending his selling of supplements, even though I wasn’t attacking him about doing so. His final argument was that “you don’t just need health, you also need wealth and I have 200 clients that buy $100 worth of vitamins a month”. I think he was looking for us to give him some kind of approval to make him feel good about doing this. To tell you the truth, I really don’t know enough about science, medicine, and the human body to say whether supplements are good or bad. When I don’t know something I always go with nature. Therefore I don’t take supplements or sell them. Storm hasn’t taken any supplements in over 30 years. Some people do seem to be helped by them. It is a personal decision. It could be that people who don’t have access to fresh organic produce year-round might be helped by high quality supplements. Pharmanex is one of the supplement companies who grow all the plants organically and extract the nutrients intact for proper chelation and better absorption. It made so much sense I almost went in for them until my un-supplemented family scored much higher on their scan tests of anti-oxidants in the tissues than those who took these high quality supplements regularly. This scanner was designed by Pharmanex to measure overall health and nutrient levels. There may be better supplement companies too. I haven’t researched this as I don’t intend to take supplements. I just happened to meet some Pharmanex promoters at a health food store and took their test.

Rhio: B12 becomes available in food through the action of bacteria that grows on or is present in/on food. Since a family of yeasts and bacteria is what causes foods to ferment, B12 would be present in fermented foods, as well as the foods that Jinjee mentioned. B12 as well as other vitamins of the B-complex family are produced in a well functioning intestine. Some have said that Vit. B12 is produced in the intestine past the point where it can be absorbed. I’m not sure I believe that to be true, but small amounts of Vit. B12 are also secreted directly into the duodenum (first part of the intestine) from bile. Dr. Robert Young says in his book Sick and Tired? that as long as you have plenty of friendly bacteria (probiotics) Vit. B12 is synthesized.

We are living in an age where everything is washed and over sanitized, but if we were living closer to the earth, like on a farm or even if we cultivated a backyard vegetable garden, we could occasionally eat our veggies straight from the garden without washing them and that should, with the right soil environment, provide us with some B12. Because B12 is so important, I suggest getting it checked out if you are concerned about it. I don’t think most raw food enthusiasts would have a problem IF they ate a wide enough variety of foods, including fermented foods, seaweeds and pollen. Pollen, is from flowers but it is collected by the bees on their feet, so methinks there may be some bacterial action there which provides B12.

The argument between analog B12 and “true” B12 strikes me as a similar argument to the complete and incomplete protein myth of the past. I don’t pretend to know the answer to this issue and so am doing some study to try to understand it better, but for myself for the present I’m not worried about it because in Nature there are many animals who are frugivores and herbivores and where do they get their B12? Of course they don’t wash their food, so they are probably getting a little soil too. (Some say they are getting it from eating some of their feces, a solution that is not appealing to humans.)

Naz: Vegetarianism Versus Veganism

Where I come out on all this, is that when we look at our own family lines, most of us have not had a vegetarian ancestor. The vast majority of us, living in America, have not had a single vegetarian ancestor, going back all the way to this almost countless line of generations. And certainly, there was not a vegan in that family line. Therefore, that’s a pretty radical thing to do, if you look at it that way, to all of a sudden become a vegan, when no one in your genetic line has been a vegan, going all the way back to perhaps thousands of years ago. We’ve been eating animal products for all that time, so the human system is expecting to get nutrients that way.

Jinjee’s Note: Yes, we have adapted to eating meat and dairy. But the way we have adapted is to have brought into being a society in which death by disease is normal and expected.

Rhio: Going back to our vegetarian or vegan diet is NOT a shock to the system; RELIEF would be a better description. It’s NOT radical to eat as nature intended no matter how long we have flaunted her laws. Of course there is detox and adjustments to contend with in the beginning but it does NOT take generations to adapt. We don’t have to evolution into our… original diet…

Naz: So what I advocate now is that people become vegetarians, not vegans. With that in mind, there are certain smart things that you can do. For instance, the problem with dairy products that most people have is the digestion of lactose. Lactose is what causes mucus. But in fermented dairy the lactose is pre-digested by the fermentation process. Even most people who are lactose intolerant can tolerate fermented dairy. Fermented dairy is yogurt, kefir, etc. You can also have some organic eggs from free-range chickens.

Jinjee’s Note: I think that including some natural organic kefir, yogurt and eggs may be beneficial for some people. Storm does not think so. We still co-habitate peacefully, so hopefully we will not have any huge rifts in the raw movement just because some people want to include these things. I do not personally include these things in my diet or intend to do so. But I think it is better than eating bread, spaghetti, processed food, and a host of other vegetarian items. I think if I were to recommend an animal product I would choose fresh goats milk, which is recommended in the Essene Gospel of Peace at http://www.thegardendiet.com/essene. However, Storm is completely opposed to eating any kind of dairy or meat. I defer to his better judgement because he seems to grow younger every day eating his diet of just fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds with Celtic Sea Salt, Cold-Pressed Olive/Hemp/Flax oils, and raw honey. My own experience with his diet has produced only incredible results, healing, weight loss and improvement. Many people have also reported amazing healing, weight loss and well-being on Storm’s version of the raw diet. However even people who have experienced nothing but good from the raw diet will sometimes be so scared by an article such as Naz’s interview that they will abandon the raw vegan diet completely and go back to a bad cooked food diet with all its related health problems. When do we start trusting our own experiences?

Naz: Fallacies in the Raw Movement #2: Cooking

Another one of the fallacies of the raw food movement is the idea that once you cook vegetables, you destroy all of the nutrients. The reality is that it simply isn’t true, according to some tests that have been done.

They did a test for cancer purposes where they knew that there were certain nutrients in certain vegetables with anti-cancer properties. So they fed one group of people raw vegetables and they fed another group cooked vegetables. Then they checked their blood, to see which group had the highest level of the positive anti-cancer properties from the vegetables in their bloodstream, and it was the people on the cooked vegetables that had it, far more than the people on the raw vegetables.

Jinjee’s Note: I have been present at such testing and the results were quite the opposite. It is known even by the medical community that raw-vegans score outrageously higher in anti-cancer nutrients than other people do.

Naz: The reason is simply because most people digest cooked vegetables better than they digest raw vegetables. More nutrients get in the bloodstream from the cooked vegetables.

Jinjee’s Note: This is a myth. If you juice your raw vegetables, there is no faster easier way to absorb the nutrients. Juicing is a known cure for every imaginable disease and this has been proven by tens of thousands of people. The only reason mainstream medicine doesn’t promote juicing is because you can’t patent vegetable juice! And it is so much more effective than anything they have patented that it would be counter-productive {for them to recommend it}.

Naz: There’s an example that I give to a lot of the people that I know – younger people, college students, old hippies, people like that – who have at least at one time or another in their lives eaten marijuana brownies. The interesting thing about eating cooked marijuana is that you’ll get high if you eat cooked marijuana, but you won’t get high at all if you eat raw marijuana. And a lot of those people can relate to that. They tried raw marijuana – eating it, and nothing happened to them. They’ve tried cooking it and eating it, and they did get high. Well, the reason is because only when the marijuana is heated does it break down the fibers enough to where the THC seeps out and can be absorbed into the human bloodstream.

Jinjee’s Note: It is quite likely that the increased toxicity of the cooked brownies were the reason that people got more “high” eating those.

Rhio: Or it could be that the body is not supposed to absorb the THC and eating raw marijuana protects you from its absorption.

Naz: What I point out is that it’s the same thing with a lot of the nutrients in vegetable matter. A lot of times, you’ll eat the raw vegetables and your body doesn’t really break down the fibers enough to absorb certain of the nutrients. In a tomato, for example, you find lycopene, which is one nutrient that they’ve found which is really good for the human heart and has anti-cancer properties. Lycopene is not digested in a raw tomato. It is digested in a cooked tomato. So, there are some nutrients that are more absorbed in cooked vegetables than in raw vegetables.

Jinjee’s Note: I’ve read around 20 articles that oppose raw food because “many” vegetables are easier to digest cooked. They always mention only one nutrient, lycopene, in one vegetable, the tomato! I’ve never heard of any other vegetable that is said to be easier to digest in its cooked state. Isn’t it rather bad logic mathematically speaking to prefer a cooked diet because of one vegetable? Actually a tomato is a fruit, but that’s a different subject.

Naz: If a person isn’t defending a particular “ism”, but is just looking for truth, you’ll find that the healthiest diet is one that includes a lot of both cooked vegetation, and raw vegetation – because that’s the best of both worlds. You’re getting the things from the raw vegetables that you can’t get from a cooked vegetable and you’re getting things from the cooked vegetables that you’re not going to get from the raw vegetables.

Jinjee’s Note: All people are different and each of us has a unique path. We travel our unique path sharing what works for us and accepting what works for others. I appreciate Nazariah sharing what works for him. I just don’t agree with his blanket statement that the raw-vegan diet is dangerous simply because his particular raw-vegan diet didn’t work for him.

Rhio: In all comparison charts I’ve seen, where raw food nutrients are measured against cooked food nutrients, there are always higher percentages of nutrients in raw and sprouted foods. There are any number of reasons why people may not ABSORB nutrients from their foods properly (either raw or cooked) and one of them is that people usually don’t chew their food enough to release the nutrients. They think that it will be handled in the stomach or the intestines but digestion really begins in the mouth. At the Ann Wigmore Institute in Puerto Rico, one of the most important classes that they teach is on chewing. Chewing food is a very, very important element in proper digestion and I would wager that a majority of us just do not take the time to chew our food enough. Food should not be swallowed until we make soup of it in our mouth. And when we eat soup and drink juice, we should also chew that. We MUST SLOW DOWN and take the time to eat properly. Doing this gives us the best chance for optimum digestion and assimilation.

And I wouldn’t underestimate the value of attitude. Eating with a sense of gratefulness for the sumptuous bounty that Nature provides puts the body and soul in the perfect frame to receive all the benefits.

It really isn’t about isms, but only honest differences of opinion which we are exploring.

Naz: The Healthiest Diet

That is the healthiest diet. A vegetarian diet that’s not a junk food vegetarian diet – but one based good, whole, organic foods.

The healthiest diet would have one meal a day that is a raw vegetable salad – a major vegetable salad, not a little iceberg lettuce, but with romaine lettuce, broccoli, etc. – a real heavy-duty salad.

Another meal would be cooked and feature things like steamed veggies, or a stir-fry, so it would have a lot of cooked vegetation in it.

A third meal simply would be fruit, like a fruit breakfast or a smoothie.

In there, somewhere, you’ve got to get your protein. So either with your salad, or with your cooked meal, you want to have yogurt or kefir, or hard-boiled eggs on your salad, or something.

Frederic: Could that be beans?

Naz: It can some days, but if it were going to always be that, then that would be vegan, and the whole point of everything I’ve just told you is that it seems that the vegan diet isn’t beneficial in the long-term. If a person were going to be a vegan, they could be having some tofu, tempeh, or some sort of a bean-type protein with their steamed veggies. That diet would be a healthy vegan diet, as far as vegan diets go. But what I’m saying is that the latest research is that the vegan diet itself is deficient in the long-term.

Rhio: A person could certainly achieve a good level of health on the diet that Naz suggests above. But they could achieve a good level of health on a raw vegetarian, well-rounded diet as well. These are individual choices.

Frederic: What about supplements? If someone takes B-12, vitamin D, etc., could that be complete?

Naz: More Nutrients Lacking in the Vegan Diet

They keep on discovering certain little things that we didn’t know, even three years ago, five years ago, ten years ago. You really can’t be sure that there’s something else that they haven’t discovered that’s lacking in the vegan diet.

For example, we only found out a few years ago about the need for the omega-3. Omega-3 fatty acids are very important, and it’s very difficult to get them on a vegan diet. Several years ago, when that got discovered, we got told that it’s in flax seeds. So then people in the vegan movement started having a lot of flax seeds or flax oil, and stuff like that. Well, now, as recently as a year ago, they discovered that we only absorb something like less than 6% of the omega 3 in flax oil. So in other words, you’d have to eat an incredible amount of flax oil to get very much omega 3 from it, because most people don’t absorb very much of it from flax oil.

And then, they discovered as recently as one year ago that there’s a long-chain fatty acid, which is really important to the brain and is not found in any vegan source of food. Then about a month ago, Gabriel Cousens said that this long chain fatty acid, called EPA, is present in this kind of wild plant called purslane. But hardly anybody knows that in the vegan movement, because that just got discovered a month ago. And most of them don’t know that they’re even missing this long-chain fatty acid.

What I’m telling you that for is that, even though the general idea is that you just combine some beans and grains and maybe take a B-12 supplement and you’re going to have everything that you need, actually, there are little things, like certain fatty acids that they keep on discovering that aren’t in the vegan diet, until they figure out some way that you can get it from a vegan source. So I wonder, whether or not in the next five years, or 10-20 years, they’re going to keep on discovering little things like that, that they didn’t know before.

It’s certainly has been happening my whole lifetime. They keep on discovering ether new tidbits of information. So if a person were concerned about health, I wouldn’t recommend a vegan diet.

Jinjee’s Note: Yes, science discovers nutrients in animal products. Then science discovers that these nutrients are present in a far healthier form in raw vegan foods. This is the continual pattern that presents itself if you look at the larger picture. First they said the milk was the best way to get calcium. Now they say that it is dark leafy greens. First they said that meat was the best way to get protein. Now they say that nuts are the superior protein. With iron it went from beef to beets. With B12 it is only a matter of time before they swing from eggs to bananas.

Rhio: Seeded bananas. Purslane is eaten as a vegetable in Europe and is extremely EASY to grow and once you plant it, you will always have it because it self sows every year and doesn’t need any special care. Yes, unfortunately, here in the US we disdainfully call this wonderful, tasty and beneficial plant a weed. But I say, we should try to eat more weeds because weeds are some of nature’s most potent plants. The presence of omega 3s in purslane has been known for some time. It was not just discovered a month ago.

There’s no doubt that scientists will keep discovering more nutrients and unknown food factors; phytochemicals are a recent example. But let me ask you, where do you think you’re getting these unknown nutrients now – in raw foods or in cooked and processed foods?

Naz is saying that everything (that could be discovered in the future) is covered in the fermented dairy, hard boiled eggs, combination raw and cooked vegetables that he recommends. I think that everything (to be discovered) is also available in a well-rounded raw vegetarian diet.

In 2002 scientists in Sweden discovered that a dangerous chemical is created in high-carbohydrate foods when they are cooked. This potent nerve toxin and carcinogen is called Acrylamide. Acrylamide is present ONLY in cooked carbohydrates (particularly those that are fried, roasted, grilled, baked, barbequed, etc.) – NOT in raw carbohydrates. After this was discovered the World Health Organization and government and industry groups hastily called meetings to see how they would “manage” this information in presenting it to the public. They also wanted to provide guidelines to help consumers make appropriate choices. So far, they’ve come up with nothing, except to say that there are toxins in foods that can’t be avoided — except, of course, we know that Acrylamide CAN be avoided by eating a raw food diet.

Naz: Ethics and Health

If your main reason for being a vegan is the ethical concerns for the animal world and if you’re willing to take on the personal karma of being less healthy because of your ethical considerations for the animal world, then, that’s an okay reason to be a vegan, but not health, because it doesn’t seem to be healthy in the long-term.

Jinjee’s Note: Where is the evidence of this, other than the “facts” generated by industry-backed research which have been proven time and again to be false?

Rhio: Naz, because of his own experience, is assuming a person will be less healthy without some dairy and eggs. No credible evidence for this, but I do believe in following Dr. Ann Wigmore’s protocol and always include fermented foods and wheatgrass juice. (I rotate my wheatgrass juice with green juices and weed drinks.) And I also use bee products like bee pollen (really flower pollen which the bees collect), propolis (which is tree bark which the bees collect) and royal jelly, which are products not acceptable to strict vegans.

Naz: So you have to just decide, where you’re at on that. If you don’t care about your own health, or if you’re willing to sacrifice your own health because of the ethical considerations for the animal world, then I don’t have any problems with that. If a person knows that they’re going to have an increased chance of dying prematurely, and having different health problems, but are choosing that path knowingly, because of their love for the animal world, well then that’s fine. As long as they’re doing it knowingly.

Jinjee’s Note: Einstein said you could tell when you had found a true mathematical formula because it was beautiful. Things in this universe make sense and are beautiful. It is a beautiful thing to evolve to a point where you don’t kill any more. The raw vegan diet is a thing of beauty that makes harmonious sense on every level. If one has faith that this universe is good, true, and beautiful, then it is easy to embrace the raw-vegan diet wholeheartedly. When one has doubts, then it is easy to find reinforcement for ones doubts.

Rhio: Ditto!

Naz: My viewpoint is that I think that for the animal world, our generation is making a good step in the right direction by simply stopping eating animals. We’re making a good step in the right direction for our species. After a certain number of generations of our family line actually being vegetarian, we could probably evolve from a vegetarian species into a vegan species – the way evolution works.

Jinjee’s Note: Yes, I believe it will be a slow evolution to a vegan and raw vegan world. Most people still don’t believe it is possible to survive without meat. It is a challenge living on a planet with this mind-set, to stick to ones own convictions and go against the current. However the tides are turning. The current SAD diet is so awful that even people en masse are seeking alternatives. When Storm went vegetarian in Detroit 37 years ago people told him he would die within a year.

Naz: But you don’t just go from a meat eating species to all of a sudden being a vegan species without a lot of traumatic problems. So I advise a more intermediate step. Let’s first evolve into being vegetarians for a number of generations, then let’s evolve into veganism and let evolution happen in that way.

Jinjee’s Note: This is naturally happening. Raw Vegans are still a very small group of people.

Naz: Raw-Veganism During Pregnancy

I don’t think that it’s wise for a woman who is pregnant to eat a raw-vegan diet, and the reason is that there are numbers of studies and view points that believe that there is an insufficient amount of nutrients comes in – especially vitamin B12. If a woman were taking the vitamin B-12 supplement, and certain other supplements, then she probably could stay on a raw-vegan diet. However, a lot of the people that are on the raw-vegan don’t believe in supplements – they don’t believe in taking vitamin B12. And according to the latest research from Gabriel Cousens, 80% of vegans are B-12 deficient. A vitamin B-12 deficiency in children leads to irreversible brain damage. So even if later in their life, they’re eating plenty of B-12, there’s been irreversible brain damage already done.

Jinjee’s Note: I have experienced two raw vegan pregnancies and two cooked vegan pregnancies; the raw ones were far easier and resulted in pain-free labors! All four of my children are raw and above average in brain development. I took no supplements during pregnancy or lactation or any other time during the past 11 years.

Rhio: For pictures of Jinjee, 36 years old, before and after her latest pregnancy, see pictures on her website: http://www.thegardendiet.com She is absolutely AWESOME!

Naz: I understand the reasons that a woman would choose to be a raw vegan herself and to attempt to raise her children that way, and even to attempt to maintain that diet while she’s pregnant. The reason is that she believes that it’s good for her and that it will be good for her children. The problem is that actual scientific evidence shows otherwise. It’s very risky and dangerous for a pregnant woman to be on a raw vegan diet, and it is risky and dangerous to raise small children on a raw vegan diet.

Jinjee’s Note: Unfortunately there simply hasn’t been any scientific testing on this matter done, so this evidence he speaks of is non-existent. The medical institutions have nothing to gain by testing the raw-vegan diet. If you want to see living proof of the raw vegan diet being exceedingly healthy for pregnant women and small children, visit our family’s website at http://www.thegardendiet.com

Rhio: Jinjee is the best example that I know of that a raw vegan diet can healthfully support pain-free normal pregnancies and produce healthy children. Please take a look at the pictures of Jinjee and her most recent baby on the website above. If Naz has the scientific evidence for his claims that a raw vegan diet is risky and dangerous for pregnant women, then he should provide the source, so that we can look it over for ourselves. Not all studies are to be believed and it usually is interesting to note who is sponsoring the study in order to determine whether they have some vested interest in its outcome.

Naz: Now, one might say, are there other problems besides the B-12 issue? Well, the B-12 issue is very important. There would need to be a B-12 supplement to be raising your child on a raw-vegan. But B-12 isn’t the only issue. Many children who are being raised on a raw-vegan diet are suffering various nutritional deficiencies that affect them later in life. And even if a person believes that perhaps a child can be raised successfully on a raw-vegan diet, they owe it to their child to research the issue before attempting to actually raise the child as a raw-vegan. It’s not enough to research the issue by asking raw-food experts, because as I’ve pointed out in this interview, raw-food experts have been spreading incorrect information for a number of years. You have to actually get into talking to other sources of information, including nutritional scientists – people who actually study nutrition.

Rhio: I agree that within the raw community there are teachers that disseminate incorrect information and promote narrow parameters of the raw diet and lifestyle. I encourage anyone pursuing a raw food lifestyle to listen to a variety of teachers, read widely on the subject of raw food, as well as health topics in general, at some point visit one of the institutes that teaches the raw/live food lifestyle (like the Ann Wigmore Institue of Puerto Rico) and then pass all the information received through the screen of their own fine intelligence. We need “thinking” raw food enthusiasts, not just followers of some teacher or “guru”. I have seen it happen many times where people surrender their own common sense, logic and analysis just because a speaker is charismatic and persuasive. Well, that is what speakers do, they are trying to convince you of something, they are trying to inspire you with their information, but at the end of the day if you are to succeed, you have to engage your own intelligence in the process. I repeat, it’s extremely urgent that people become “thinkers” not just blind followers of a philosophy.

Frederic: Have you seen yourself children who’ve been raised on a raw vegan diet?

Naz: I know friends of the family of the infant that died recently in Florida, and they tell me that even the older children in that family were emaciated and looked like Nazi workcamp inmates.

Jinjee’s Note: That family fed their children about five different kinds of foods only. Avocado, corn, and three other things. It was a freak situation. Hundreds of children on a “normal” diet die every day from obesity-related diseases but they never make the news individually.

Rhio: When I read some of the reports of that unfortunate family in Florida whose child died, I noticed a couple of things that seemed wrong. First of all, they were giving the baby wheatgrass juice. Wheatgrass juice has its place, but a baby’s first food should be Mother’s Milk. Why wasn’t the baby on mother’s milk? A baby can live on mother’s milk for the first two years of its life without any problem whatsoever. (This is assuming the mother is well nourished.)

Secondly, the mother had 5 children in 6 years. That is too many children in too short a period of time. She may have been nutritionally depleted and not able to supply the new baby with a good nutritional inheritance. According to the best advice, a woman needs three years between pregnancies to make sure that both she and the newest child will be optimally nourished. (There may be exceptions, of course.)

It’s hard to comment on the particular circumstances of this family and their children because not enough information is available (or if it is, I don’t have it), but what I do know for sure is that thousands of babies, who are fed “regular” food and formula die every year of sudden infant death syndrome and many other causes and the mothers don’t go to jail for it and have their other children taken away. Mistakes were made, yes, but mistakes are made everyday in “mainstream” families and the families aren’t punished for it. In families whose children eat cooked food and die, diet is never even a consideration!!

If anyone on this list has any information on what happened to the family, whether they got their children back, etc. , please let me know. Thanks.

Frederic: Is 100% raw ideal?

Naz: Here’s what I think now: a person on a raw diet, including fermented dairy products or eggs, will do fine. But if a person was going for what the healthiest diet is, I think having one meal of cooked vegetables per day – steamed vegetables or an oriental stir-fry, or something like that – is actually even healthier than being 100% raw for this reason: Studies have shown that certain important nutrients in vegetables are better absorbed and utilized by a human being from cooked vegetables. And other certain important nutrients are better absorbed and utilized by a human being from raw vegetables. So, the best of both worlds is each day to have cooked and raw vegetables in our diet.

Jinjee’s Note: Don’t you mean eat all your vegetables raw and one cooked tomato? By the way the latest studies are now showing that the cooked tomato is only beneficial for women while the raw tomato prevents prostate cancer in men.

Naz: So actually, as far as what would be the most healthy diet, I think it would be one meal each day that includes cooked vegetables, like some steamed veggies or stir-fry and one meal per day that’s basically a big, raw, vegetable salad, and, if there’s a third meal, that can be a couple pieces of fruit or fruit smoothie for breakfast, and that would be raw. So the diet that I just described would be two third raw. And then there’s got to be a good source of protein in that diet, which means that perhaps with the cooked meal, one might have some kefir, some yogurt, or perhaps, on the salad a couple of hard-boiled eggs.

Jinjee’s Note: I’m not saying that this diet wouldn’t be good. It is still a huge cut above the Standard American Diet. Dr. Walker lived to be over 100 years old and healthy on a 75% raw diet including fruits for breakfast, a big salad for lunch, vegetable juices once or twice a day, and rice and steamed vegetables for dinner. If you can’t be happy on a 100% raw diet long term, don’t do it. Happiness is at least as important to your overall health as diet is! Personally I am happiest when eating living foods. This may or may not be true for you.

Rhio: Some reports say Dr. Walker lived to be 115. I have a friend who actually knew him and she said that he used to chase her around the table… meaning that… he was very sprightly at an advanced age… and no viagra!!

Frederic: What’s Missing in the Vegan Diet

This leads me to question the protein theories that I have learned. The current RDAs for protein are 0.8 grams for every kilo of ideal body weight, which seems fairly easy to get on a raw-vegan diet. So where do you get the impression that protein is such an important element in the diet?

Naz: Where we get the impression is from the actual crippled people and people with nervous disorders on the vegan diet. See, on paper, like you’re saying, it all looks fine. But in reality, you have people on long-term vegan diets having real problems.

So that’s where we find out that there are problems. So then the investigators say, “Okay, even though we thought that there was plenty of these nutrients in a long-term vegan diet, we have these degenerative brain diseases and things like that happening to vegans: so what’s the problem?” Then they discover that there are certain long-chain fatty acids and other things that we’re not really thinking about when we’re just looking at how many ounces of protein is in this or that.

The real complexity comes in that there’d be these things that we haven’t factored in. And then even right now, there’s no reason to think that in the next five or ten years they’re not going to discover more of those little things that we don’t currently know about, because they keep discovering more. You have to realize that in the 1900s, nobody knew what B-12 was, nobody knew what vitamin C was, nobody knew what vitamin A was – that’s all stuff that got discovered later. And as the years go by, they keep discovering more things. Rather than look at all the things they’ve discovered so far, and then look at whether or not you can get them on a certain diet, it’s good to look at groups of people who have been following a certain diet and if they’re healthy or not.

Jinjee’s Note: Yes, and these things are usually discovered in plant foods. Even if they are discovered in animal food sources, what happens to these nutrients when you cook them is that they are altered into toxic molecular structures. And it is simply unsafe to eat raw animal foods due to the high levels of bacteria that break down dead meat.

Naz: Long-Term Vegans Don’t Look Good

One of the things that I’ve just noticed, with my own eyeballs, is that a lot of long-term vegans actually don’t look healthy. They look kind of emaciated, their skin is kind of yellow, they’ve got bags under their eyes, their hair’s not good – it’s splitting, their fingernails aren’t good. So just looking at long-term vegans, like if you go to a vegan’s organization’s meeting and look at the people and you’ll realize that they actually don’t even look healthy, especially when you look at the people that have been on it for longer than 10 years. So then you start finding out that they’re having really major health problems related to certain nutritional deficiencies.

Jinjee’s Note: I have met so many raw-vegans who look extremely well. The most beautiful people I have ever met are raw-vegans. They have a glow, a clarity of the eyes, youthful skin, a wonderful energy, and a bearing that is beyond beautiful. You meet a fair amount of them who look sickly because that is why they got into the diet, they were sick to start with. And you do meet some who look depleted because they are going through some level of detox or they haven’t yet dialed in the diet to get enough nutrition from it. With vegans, often they live on processed vegan foods, which aren’t any better than any other processed foods. Then you factor in the spiritual elements. Many raw vegans have trouble dealing with the levels of power that they encounter within themselves after going raw. Power tends to flip people out. Like the nouveau riche, like celebrity, like the clergy, like political leaders, the power in these positions can corrupt. The corruption from raw power can be seen in some people’s faces manifested as anger, greed, egotism, alienation, fear, paranoia, snobbishness, fanaticism, and arrogance. This is not the norm, but it does happen to some people. Most work through it and end up in a really good place.

Naz: I want to emphasize that I was a vegan. I was a radical vegan. I was in favor of the philosophy, and I still think it’s a beautiful philosophy. I still think it’s fine for a person, in spite of all that I’ve said – to just knowingly become a vegan. But what they shouldn’t be under is the false illusion that they’re following a diet that’s healthier than other diets, which is what they thought. In fact, it’s probably not as healthy as certain other diets. And it’s okay to do it, as long as you realize that you are taking a risky dietary choice, and you’re doing it for ethical reasons, not health reasons.

Jinjee’s Note: If it’s good, it’s good. If it’s bad, it’s bad. It’s an orderly universe that makes a lot of sense. What makes sense is beautiful. What is beautiful makes sense.

Naz: Raw-Vegan Fallacy #3: Enzymes

You’re probably familiar with the very recent case in Florida, where a small child died on a raw-vegan diet. When that happened, there were a lot of newspaper articles in Florida about the raw-food diet. And those reporters were going around, asking different nutritional experts for their opinion on the raw-food diet. Well, some buddy in Florida sent me a couple of newspaper articles, and in those articles, there were a few nutritional scientists interviewed. They were pointing out, like I’ve mentioned before, that most of the nutrients get absorbed better in a cooked vegetable, and a few get absorbed and utilized better in a raw vegetable. Therefore, the healthiest diet would be one that included both raw and cooked vegetables, because then you’re getting the nutrients that are better absorbed in each way.

But there are other fallacies that nutritional scientists pointed out. One of which is the whole living enzyme thing. Only one researcher, in the 1940’s, that Dr. Howell, who always gets mentioned in the raw food literature, believed that there was a chance that, when you ate raw foods, those enzymes in the food would make it to the part of the digestion process where they could be helpful, before they got themselves completely fried. But, your other 99% of researchers don’t believe that. And this is what people in the raw-food movement don’t realize, is that the idea that the raw enzymes in food that you eat are going to help you digest your food is not believed to be true by 99% of researchers. The reason is because before food even gets to the point where the nutrients are being extracted, it’s already been totally broken down by your own digestion process. When you eat food, it goes to a place in your stomach where there’s these incredible “fires” with acids, and stuff like that, and it totally breaks down your food before it gets to the point that those enzymes could help in the way that raw-foodists believe they help. But, the other thing is that the enzymes of a plant are not the same as the enzymes of a human being, in our digestive tract. The enzymes of a plant are designed by a plant to help the plant digest its nutrients, its food. So the enzymes of a broccoli plant are for the broccoli plant to digest its food. If you look at them with a microscope, they aren’t the same as the enzymes in a human digestive tract.

Jinjee’s Note: perhaps plants have enzymes that help them digest their food, but apparently they also have enzymes that make them grow, ripen and rot. These are the ones that help the plant to decompose in our system. The enzyme doesn’t make it to our stomach if it is cooked. But my understanding is that the enzymes in raw food are absorbed through the saliva while chewing, setting up the right enzymatic activity in our stomach. With cooked foods the enzymes are dead before the food even goes into our mouth, so the body doesn’t know what kind of food to get ready to digest, and so it generates all kinds of digestive juices which takes away energy from our metabolic enzyme reserves.

Rhio: If nutrients get absorbed better on cooked vegetation, somebody better inform the deer and bears and possum and birds and other wild life who look very healthy to me, at least the ones that I see on my farm. Pig farmers sell their pork by the pound, so they want pigs to put on weight. When these farmers feed their pigs raw potatoes, the pigs stay sleek, but when the potatoes are cooked, the pigs put on the weight sought by the farmers to increase their profits. That doesn’t mean the pigs are healthier, only that they weigh more. A lot more. They become OBESE! (Obviously they have absorbed an abnormal amount of starch from the cooked potatoes.)

Dr. Edward Howell is not the ONLY researcher on enzymes who understood their importance to health, although he was one of the first to put out the information. There are many, MANY other researchers reporting on enzymes and we DO KNOW that the enzymes present in the raw food you eat help to digest that same raw food, and the reason that we know this is because when you eat food raw, the pancreas produces less enzymes — that is not speculation, it has been tested. Why does it produce less enzymes? Because less are needed. The pancreas of a cooked food eater is enlarged in size as opposed to a raw food eater. This has also been proven through autopsy. The pancreas of a cooked food eater expands to supply more tissue to produce more enzymes. It is OVERWORKED.

Also when you eat food raw, digestive leukocytosis does not occur. Digestive leukocytosis (sometimes called pathological digestive leukocytosis) means that the body is creating a reaction to the cooked food by sending white blood cells to the organs of digestion. Leukocytosis happens every time you eat cooked foods, or have an infection or sustain an injury to the body. White blood cells contain enzymes so it has been surmised that the enzymes are used to digest the food. Leukocytosis DOES NOT OCCUR when you are eating raw food. Less enzymes are secreted from the pancreas when you are eating raw food. Less enzymes secreted… less work for the pancreas.

Naz: Now there are a few plant enzymes that have been found to help digest certain things, like for instance in papayas you have papain. There are a couple of plant enzymes that seem to have a beneficial effect in digesting certain things, but the idea that we have when we are eating our salads and our raw foods that all of those living enzymes in those plants are somehow going to aid our digestion process actually is not what science has found.

Jinjee’s Note: Again, if you read the medical journals you’ll notice that these scientific studies have all been done using cooked foods. Also, they have been done on people who eat a cooked diet. The inner terrain of a raw-foodist is very different from that of a cooked foodist. Nutrients react differently in different terrains. So fruit sugar will affect a raw foodist very differently than a cooked foodist.

Naz: Underweight Raw Vegans

If we go to a raw food conference, you notice that a lot of men look quite skinny or emaciated. Some say it’s detox and that the weight will come back, but then many have been on this diet for quite a while and still are quite underweight.

Jinjee’s Note: If they worked out, they would put on weight. Also, being skinny is not a bad thing. We’re just conditioned to think it is. Why is it that women are supposed to be skinny and men aren’t? And could that fact be associated with the fact that women live longer? The calorie restriction diet has been proven to cause longevity in all animal groups tested. See CalorieRestriction.org . Also, all people I’ve seen pictures of who lived to be over 100 were skinny.

Naz: That’s the big problem now, but there are a few exceptions to the rule: people who have amazing digestive systems and are able to digest nutrients properly on an all-raw diet. But the important thing is that those are the exception to the rule. The vast majority of people does not adequately break down and digest all the raw foods that they’re eating. And that’s why they can’t reach a healthy weight.

Jinjee’s Note: I would say that it is a minority of people who can’t break down and digest raw foods. These are people who would have just as much trouble breaking down cooked foods. They simply have digestive problems, which would be healed on the right raw-vegan diet for them that included ample vegetable juices, germinated almond milk, and fruits.

Naz: I mentioned to you that several people have died on a raw food diet and that when they died; the doctor said that their body had starved to death. Those weren’t people that were fasting; they were people that were eating raw foods everyday. But their body starved to death because these individuals had less effective digestive systems than the average person. So, even though the average person would not digest as many nutrients from the raw vegetables as from the cooked vegetables, people with poor digestion digest so few nutrients on the raw food diet that they can actually starve to death even though they are eating everyday.

And so, when one sees things like that happen and then try to bring that up and talk about it in the raw-food movement, then everyone gets really defensive and starts attacking you and labeling you in some negative way.

Jinjee’s Note: Standing up for what one believes is true is never bad. I would not label Nazariah for it. I don’t think it is bad that he is doing this. But those who have other beliefs and experiences should stand up too, so that both sides can be considered.

Naz: What raw-foodism has become is just another “ism,” that is defended by the true believers. And any information that I’ve provided you in this interview, what the true believers will do with it is that they’ll simply look at it and immediately start forming arguments and opinions to counter it, without ever being open to the possibility that it might actually be true. Just like a Jehovah Witness would defend Jehovaism, and a Mormon would defend Mormonism, raw-foodists will defend raw-foodism.

Jinjee’s Note: On the contrary, I believe that one can be very healthy on the diet Naz is outlining. He, however, is stating that the raw food diet is dangerous, which I disagree with. Every body is different. Every mind is different. Every spirit is different. There are many factors that contribute to health; diet, sleep, water, exercise, environment, mental state, spiritual life, family life, social life, work life, genetics, attitude, beliefs, and probably other unknown factors. How can one say that one diet is right for everyone? Or that one diet is right for you for your whole life? I ask only that you think for yourself. And that you don’t devalue your own experiences. Believe in your experiences. Trust your intuition, your instincts, your inner guidance, and the true desires of your heart. There is no such thing as scientific fact. There are only scientific theories which each generation of scientists build upon with new theories. Science is the study of truth, which is infinite in its mystery.

Frederic: The Raw-Vegan Movement

When we talk to these leaders, people like Gabriel Cousens, they’ll acknowledge the B-12 issue. But you don’t just recommend supplements but move away from the vegan diet completely. Why?

Naz: The thing is that I’m not so personally invested in having to defend the raw-food diet or the vegan diet. I simply got into all of this because I was a seeker of truth, and I was looking for a diet that was spiritual and healthy, and wherever truth has led me, I followed.

Jinjee’s Note: If truth led him to the raw vegan diet, what led him away? Health problems? Perhaps these could have been solved by fine tuning the raw vegan diet for him. Perhaps his health problems would have been worse if he hadn’t been raw. It could be that the problems were set up a long time before he went raw. It could also be in his mind. If he was excessively worrying about deficiencies and focusing on them, they could have been brought about that way.

Naz: The problem is that with most of these noted leaders of the movement are authors. That’s how they got to be the noted leaders, because they were writing the books. And they’re on the lecture circuit, they have clients, they’re earning their living from being an authority on veganism or raw-foodism. If they completely just shift and say, “I no longer believe that the raw-vegan diet is anything that should be advocated to the large number of people,” then the problem is that it pulls the rug from underneath them, personally, in regards to how they’re earning their living. So I hate to say a thing like this, but from what I’ve seen with my own eyes, it seems to be part of the problem.

Jinjee’s Note: I don’t think that the people who write about raw foods would be able to live with themselves for very long if they knew they were giving out false information. I don’t think these authors are the kind of people who would do something like that. One doesn’t get rich as a raw food author and lecturer. I can speak from experience on that. Their motivation is usually a passion to help people as they have been helped themselves. And I think most of them firmly believe what they are teaching.

Naz: The leaders, the authority figures, are earning their living from being promoters of this particular diet. So therefore – and even the best of them – when they start to see some problems, their instinct is to just recommend a particular supplement, or something like that, and of course, usually they sell the supplements that they’re recommending. You’ll notice that most of them do. So they sell those things, but if they were to simply say, “Gosh, you know even though I became a famous author on this topic, it doesn’t actually seem to be valid anymore,” they would have to change their entire career. The thing that they’re famous for would not be something that they aren’t in favor of anymore. It’s a radical thing that they would have to experience and go through.

Jinjee’s Note: I can only speak for myself and say that if I ever found out that this diet was harmful in any way or caused any problems in the long-term that I would publish that information far and wide on my website, my newsletter, raw forums, and articles. My goal is not to make money but to be able to make money doing my right livelihood, my calling, which will always be aligned with my highest truth with no compromise.

Frederic: Long-Term Raw-Food Authors Eating Cooked Food

Are you saying that these leaders may actually not be vegans themselves but won’t come out publicly and say that?

Naz: That’s not what I just said. But since you are saying that, on whether or not they are vegans or not, all I can say is that I have seen with my own eyes certain things… One incident occurred when I was one of the speakers at the raw-food convention in San Francisco, a few years back. Two of the speakers were really insistent that one has to be on a 100% raw-vegan diet and that 80% raw is not okay to get the benefits. They said out loud that you have to be 100% raw-vegan. And each of those speakers claimed to have been 100% raw-vegans for 20 years. They were the most aggressive, assertive speakers in the entire convention, really negative towards anyone that would just eat partially raw. Well, before the end of that weekend, I saw each of them sneakily eat cooked food.

I went for a walk and a few blocks away from the convention center and I walked by a pizza restaurant, and there was one of the speakers who had said those things, and he’s eating a pizza. You can order a pizza with no cheese on it, but even then it would be cooked food and he was claiming that he hadn’t eaten cooked food in 20 years. And it looked like it was a cheese pizza.

Then when I was leaving the San Francisco airport, and I was walking around that round concourse in the airport, with little restaurants and things like that, and there was the other speaker who had been so aggressive and assertive about having to be 100% raw. He was sitting at a table having a plate of spaghetti. I don’t know whether that was vegan or not, but it was certainly cooked. And, as I was approaching him and he saw me coming up, he stuck up a newspaper and hid his face behind it. But I didn’t embarrass him by walking up to him.

One of the real problems in that raw food movement with those experts and authors is that they have a lot of guilt because they get into this thing about having to be 100% raw. And when they themselves have a binge or sneakily eat some cooked food, they don’t want to admit it because it would wreck their reputation as the great raw-foodist that never eats cooked food. So therefore they eat the cooked food on the sly and then have guilt about it. They start to get into a very vicious cycle psychologically. Yet, when you speak to them or when they do their lecture, they just still claim to have never eaten cooked food in all these years. They put on a fake front to the public. So I saw that with my own eyes with a number of the leading individuals.

So, are there some of those leaders who really are 100% raw-vegans through the years and are healthy? There might be. But, they also might not be. I mean, all I know is that the ones that I get to know, the more I get to know them, the more I see them eating cooked food on the sly, or having really severe problems like anxiety attacks, panic attacks, clinical depression, teeth falling out, fingernails breaking, hair falling out. So I’m just not personally impressed with my experience of the raw food movement and the raw-food experts! That’s just my own personal experience with all that.

Frederic: But I’m sure some people will come to you and say, “Oh, I know this guy who’s been a raw-vegan for 30 years, and he’s muscular and he’s really healthy.”

Naz: Yeah, and what I always think of when I hear that is those speakers that I saw that said that they had been 100% raw for 20 years and that very weekend of the raw food convention both of them ate cooked food. So, I take it all with a grain of salt. In other words, those people might believe they know somebody that’s been raw-vegan for 30 years and is in great physical condition, but whether that person really has been or not, or whether that person really is healthy and isn’t suffering some things behind the scenes, one doesn’t know. And so, I remain open to the possibility that there are some individuals whose particular body type has permitted to be a raw-vegan for thirty years and be in good health. I admit that possibility, but my own experience tells me that that would be few and far between – it wouldn’t be most people.

Jinjee’s Note: It is an interesting co-incidence that Naz has run into so many raw leaders cheating on their diets. I have heard such rumors before, but it would seem a very freak accident to happen upon even one such incident in ones lifetime. I have also heard several raw leaders openly say that they are not 100% raw all the time. And those that do say that they are 100% raw I believe. Their sincerity, commitment, and dedication is very clear to me. It hurts me to see them maligned here as a group.

Rhio: I have no reason to doubt that Naz saw what he says he saw. I do not know him although I met him once briefly at that same raw food festival in San Francisco. I hope he is being truthful… I’ve heard things also about some raw teachers/authors. Some raw food so-called experts may not walk their talk … maybe there are some that view the raw lifestyle solely as a business and do not follow it in their personal lives, or maybe they believe what they say, but have not been able to implement it fully in their own lives, or maybe they just had an off day. I have also seen some things that don’t look right… but I also want to point out that sometimes a raw food person can be maligned on circumstantial evidence (I’m not saying this was the case with what Naz saw). For example, every month I get a delivery to my house of organic ostrich and chicken. Now, someone present when I receive the delivery or someone that peeks into my freezer might have doubts about me… until they learn that I have cats… (My cats eat the raw meat with raw vegetables.)

Some guests to my house might find some cooked food in the kitchen cabinets or refrigerator and might doubt my sincerity… until they learn that I have roomates… who also eat … and unfortuntely, not raw food. (Thankfully, they usually eat out.)

I also know that people are human and there may be times when due to extreme pressure, stress or circumstances they go off the diet, like, for example, when I saw the world trade center disaster unfolding through my window, it triggered a couple of days of popcorn eating. The shocking tragedy caused me to revert back to my old way of handling stress, but then I regained my senses and was back to my raw diet stronger than ever.

Naz: Lack of Honesty in the Raw-Vegan Movement

Frederic: There’s not much honesty in the raw movement, as you’re saying…

See, there’s a definite problem there. And it’s not, a “problem of the raw movement.” The problem is just human beings. Whether you’re talking about politics, whether you’re talking about sports, whatever field you’re talking about, you find that there are a lot of things that are done for the profit motive. That individual people are usually looking out for how they’re earning their income.

Now we see that and criticize it, in things like the oil industry and the munitions industry, but the same exact thing is true in the health food industry. It’s true in health movements, raw-food movements, and things like that. There gets to be certain groups of people who are earning their living from it and feeding their egos by being the authority figures. The human species seems to, in general, still have a problem struggling with basic honesty.

In the raw-food movement, you sort of set yourself up for the worst of human nature, simply because you get into a one-upsmanship thing where, “what percent raw are you?”, “How long have you been 100% raw?” You get into this sort of like “raw-food one-upsmanship,” which cultivates the worst in human behavior patterns.

Rhio: I don’t think you can say it is dishonest to be human and have a human failing once in a while. Some raw food leaders, like Chef Cherie Soria, for example, say quite frankly that they are not 100% raw. Viktoras Kulvinskas has talked very openly about his struggles with the diet and his addictions. The Hippocrates Health Institute advocates 75-80% raw diet.

Perhaps there are people “earning their living and feeding their egos” BUT MOST of the speakers and authors that I know are genuine and sincere in their efforts to get the information out and do not fit into these negative characterizations.

Frederic: Supplements

Many of the authors in the raw-movement, who used to recommend really simple, basic raw-vegan diets, are now getting into all these supplements and super-foods. It seems that they’re noticing that this basic raw-vegan diet seems to be deficient. Why is that?

Naz: There are two reasons for that. One is because of what you just said. There’s an interesting thing about the raw food movement, which is different than other field. In the raw-food movement, if you come into it and are a raw-foodist for a fairly short time – like two or three years – you tend to start writing your books.

In the raw-food movement as a whole, people get into the idea of the pristine version of the raw-food diet, which wouldn’t include supplements. They do that for a period of time and write a book or two while they’re on that version of the diet. Then, all of the sudden in their own lives, they start having the problems of the nutritional deficiencies, and then they start looking for the answers. At first, the idea is that the answer is like some simple fix, like, “Gosh, if I just take a B-12 supplement, or if I just eat this algae” or something like that. So then, they start looking for the answer in that direction. So, that’s one reason why all these raw-food guys end up getting into pitching supplements.

But the other reason is that once you’ve become a raw-food author and are getting to speak at the raw-food events and are earning a bit of money being on the lecture circuit, you quickly realize how much more money you could make if you were selling supplements. It just becomes really obvious that if all of these people who are attending your lecture had the opportunity to buy from you some vitamin C or buy from you some fatty acids or something like that, well, you’re going to walk away from that event with more money in your pocket. Plus, you can only be in so many places in a year, you can only do so many lectures, you can only earn so much money from that. But the amount of money that you can make over your webpage if you’re hulking supplements is astronomical -there’s no limit to it. So, once a person is viewing their career as being a raw-food teacher, they soon learn that they’ll make a lot more money if they’re also selling supplements.

Jinjee’s Note: In my opinion the above is a gross generalization, but with some truth to it. A lot of the speakers on the circuit are doing a lot of social raw food, dehydrated food, not enough fresh organic foods, which could lead to depletion.

Rhio: If you believe in taking supplements then you are not “hulking” them to just make a living. If you believe in supplements and then go to the trouble to find the genuine food-based ones and make them available to people, I don’t see that as some sinister endeavor that you are doing just for the money. This kind of idea is a throwback to the idea that if you are doing something good, you cannot make any money at it because then it becomes suspect… What’s wrong with making some money and doing some good at the same time? In order for the raw food movement to grow and become more mainstream, MORE “vendors” are needed to provide the food and information and if people are going to work at providing goods, services or information they should be able to make a living at it. Why should their motives be impugned? And just from a practical point of view, how long will a raw food restaurant stay in business if they are not making money? How long will an organic farmer stay in business if he/she are not making money at it?

I believe in taking supplements at certain times and for different reasons. The world that we are living in is unbalanced and tends to create imbalances in the body. For example, working under fluorescent lights day after day pulls the vitamin A out of the body and that’s why you see so many office workers need to get glasses eventually. Certainly a raw food diet may correct that, but it may not be enough… it depends on the individual. Offices could install full spectrum fluorescent lights, but are we to wait until they do so? Even if we don’t work in an office, we visit offices, we visit gyms, we visit health food stores, we visit and spend time in numerous places that use fluorescent lights so all of us are being affected to some degree.

Stress from everyday living depletes the adrenals. (causing deficiency of B-Complex)

Smoke, pollution and city living deplete Vitamin C.

Lack of sufficient sunlight on the skin depletes Vitamin D and use of sunblocks prevents its absorption.

Refined grains deplete Vitamin E & F.

e t c e t e r a…

All of the above may or may not be handled completely with a raw food diet. We are all individual.

Naz: But that first reason that we talked about, which was, they themselves start to experience nutritional deficiencies and are looking for answers – that’s in there too. So there’s these two. Then, the question is, would that be possible to go on a raw-vegan diet that wouldn’t include supplements? I’d recommend Gabriel Cousens’ latest information. It’s not in his book. It’s in his e-mail bulletin, and he actually contradicts what’s in his book – he admits that. He says that what he put in his book is what he believed at the time. He now believes that problems with B-12 in the vegan movement are much more severe. Before, he was saying you could get B-12 from certain sources, like spirulina and blue-green algae and certain sea vegetables. He now does not believe that. He believes that those are analog B-12 that can’t be absorbed by the human body. And so now he’s advocating that people take a B-12 supplement. He says that maybe 20% of human beings could do a vegan diet without having to take a B-12 supplement, but at least 80% can’t. And people shouldn’t just assume that they’re in that 20% category, because the odds are against them.

He believes that 20% might be able to go without a B-12 supplement simply because when he tests vegans, 80% of them are found to be in serious B-12 deficiency. But to me, that doesn’t necessarily mean that 20% of the people can go without B-12 supplementation on a vegan diet. Because in fact, of those 20% people that he’s testing that right now, aren’t deficient – how do we know that three years from now, 10% of those people won’t have become deficient? In other words, a best-case scenario, which is what Gabriel is talking about, is that maybe 20% of the people on a vegan diet wouldn’t need the supplement.

Jinjee’s Note: I respect Dr. Cousens’ work, but if the above is an accurate account of his research my initial question would be whether these people were B-12 deficient on paper only or if they were actually experiencing poor health? There are recommended daily allowances and measurements that are exaggerated beyond what a person really needs.

Rhio: And the conundrum is that B-12 supplements do not come from sources that sound appealing to vegetarians. Reportedly one method of producing B-12 supplements involves using activated sludge and the other method is from meat. I’ve seen some B-12 supplements advertised as vegetarian … could that be from the activated sludge? Mmm.

Naz: Long-Chain Fatty Acids
But that’s just B-12, though.
Yes, like I was indicating, and it’s really complex. What we know, based on that article, the research published in the American Vegan that I cited, is that vegans die more of degenerative brain diseases.
Jinjee’s Note: This is probably from all the processed TVP and soy products eaten by vegans.

Naz: Now, then the question is why? And this is new information; it didn’t used to be known that vegans get more of these brain-wasting diseases. Now that that is known, people are looking for the answer. And they’re coming up with certain answers, like that there’s a particular long-chain fatty acid that is not available in a vegan diet.
Jinjee’s Note: In my opinion, if its a long-chain fatty acid that isn’t available in raw vegan foods then its either because it hasn’t yet been identified in raw vegan foods or because we don’t really need it.
Naz: What I stick on there as an extra is that we don’t even know right now what brain nutrients might be lacking in the vegan diet, because they’re just barely discovering this. They barely discovered this long-chain fatty acid that isn’t present in the vegan diet. So for us to now buy a supplement of that one thing and think that we’ve solved the problems with the vegan diet, I don’t think that would be valid. How do we know that two years from now, six years from now they’re not going to be discovering other little things that we didn’t know existed before that are lacking on the vegan diet? What we do know is that there are some sorts of nutritional deficiencies in the vegan diet, and we’re starting to discover what some of those deficiencies are. For instance, David Wolfe and Gabriel Cousens want to develop a supplement for that long-chain fatty acid.
Frederic: DHA?
Naz: EPA. That’s a long-chain fatty acid and one of the things it protects against is depression, which is one of the reasons vegans also have a higher incidence of suicide, clinical depression, anxiety attacks and panic attacks.
Jinjee’s Note: I’d like to see the statistics/evidence for this statement.

Rhio: Me too!
Naz: It may be because they’re not getting enough of this EPA long-chain fatty acid. So Gabriel and David Wolfe are interested in developing a supplement they would sell that would be a vegan source for EPA. Right now, there’s one plant source that some people can get their EPA from. It’s an herb that grows wild like a weed and is called purslane. The thing about that is that only people with good digestion can absorb the EPA from the purslane. People with good digestion can do that. But people with less than average digestion can’t.

Rhio: Purslane is a wild vegetable that is characterized as a weed. It is easy to grow and even E A S I E R to digest. Why would a supplement of EPA be easier to digest than the actual item? One of the benefits of a raw diet, over time, is that the digestion becomes very good. It’s one of the first areas of improvement for most people.

Frederic: If you were a vegetarian who eats dairy and eggs, would you get EPA from the animal products that you’re eating?
Naz: Here’s what we know: we know that vegetarians who eat a bit of dairy and some eggs live longer and healthier and have less nutritional deficiencies.

Jinjee’s Note: Again, I’d like to see the studies. I’ve done extensive research on my own and read the medical journals and haven’t heard of any such thing. How old are these studies? Are they from before the relatively recent proliferation of organic produce?
Naz: You’ve got the possibility to eat some dairy and/or eggs, but since some people have problems digesting dairy, eggs are a good option. Eggs seem to have some nutrients that dairy doesn’t have, and it seems to me that eggs seem to have everything in them that meat has, but the dairy only has most of what meat has. So I think that the person who eats dairy will be helping themselves nutritionally, but not as much as if they eat eggs. So then the thing is to get organic eggs from free-range chickens.
I guess this is my point: rather than try and figure out what exact supplement or what exact fatty acid we need to take to be a vegan, it seems to me that by far the safer thing to do is just be a vegetarian who eats some eggs and a bit of dairy, because of that point that I keep coming back to. They keep discovering these different things that are deficient in the vegan diet every couple years. So even if right now you take a particular supplement that’s supposed to handle some particular problem now, you don’t really know that in two years or eight years they’re not going to discover that vegans are still dying of these problems and so, we still are lacking something. We don’t know how this is going to come out. So, the safest thing to do is to simply start eating some organic eggs.

Frederic: Is Fish Healthy?
But then, if we take your arguments further and someone was just interested in health, would that be healthier not to be a strict vegetarian, and have fish occasionally?
Naz: If a person doesn’t have the ethical considerations, then the healthiest diet might be to include some fish. However, I do have myself the ethical problems with that, so that’s not what I’m recommending to people. I feel that if we can make the step to become vegetarian, this generation, that we’re doing a great thing. We are making a giant step in the right direction of ethics. Just becoming a vegetarian is doing a good thing. But to answer your question, if a person didn’t have the ethical problems with eating fish, would that be healthy? Well the answer is probably yes, as long as it wasn’t fish from a polluted source that has mercury or something like that.
Rhio: And where would you be finding that source, pray tell? And while we’re at it, let’s just add a little meat… and we’re back where we started… looking for health in all the wrong places.
Frederic: Raw Versus Pasteurized Dairy Products, Eggs
Here in Canada you don’t find raw dairy products, except cheese. You only find pasteurized dairy milk. So what would you recommend?
Naz: What I would recommend is going to a health food store and buying the health-food store variety of yogurt or kefir. The reason is that those are live-foods, because of the fermentation process and the culture, even though they’re not raw.
Frederic: So that still would give you the benefits?

Naz: You see, even though we all hear about all the problems with pasteurization, we shouldn’t forget the problems with non-pasteurized dairy. For instance, dying of the worst case of diarrhea you can possibly imagine! Because when you drink raw milk, there’s the possibility that it’s contaminated with E-coli. So there are the pros and cons of unpasteurized dairy products. If a person is not concerned with things like E-coli in a raw egg, they could simply put a couple of raw eggs in their smoothies, if they are trying to be raw-foodists.
Frederic: Just the yolk or the whole thing?

Naz: I would say the whole thing, and the reason is because the egg white has the protein, but the yolk has certain fatty acids that seem to be important for the brain.
Frederic: The Latest Raw Vegan Diets
Some people recommend a fruit-based, low-fat raw diet, and say that you actually won’t get the problems that all these other raw-food people are getting because they’re eating so much fat. What are your thoughts on this?
Naz: Over the years, I’ve seen every imaginable variety of the raw food diet, and the one common denominator that I’ve seen over a period of time is that the raw-vegan diet over a period of years seems to be nutritionally deficient. That’s my opinion. It seems to me that a raw-vegan diet, over a period of years, leads to severe nutritional deficiencies.
This is one of the problems: there will always be people pitching some particular variation of the raw diet, which is going to be the true solution, if you just do this. And of course they’ll write a book about it and will be on the lecture circuit about it. The problem is that a couple years go by and that’s no longer the “in” variation – it’s some other variation take its place, a couple years later some other variation. What I’ve seen is that no variation that is raw-vegan for years in a row seems to be adequate.
Rhio: But Naz is pitching his version of the “true solution” too! I think we should stop disparaging each other and just give the information and opinions and let people engage their own intelligence in the discussion and implementation. I also notice from the whole interview that Naz seems to have a problem with people writing books and going on the lecture circuit. He seems to feel that raw food authors have nothing of value to say. My opinion is that raw food writers/speakers have a lot of value to say. Many of them have certainly informed and inspired me! Even the less than credible information (like this interview, for example) is good because it gets me “inging”; that is, thinking, investigating, studying, evaluating, reevaluating, canvassing, rejecting, reformulating, researching, rechecking, inquiring, exploring, probing, stimulating, analyzing, etc.
Naz: The diet that you’re particularly mentioning there: where is it going to get that long-chain fatty acid that we’re talking about? Where is it going to get its B-12, where is it going to get its complete protein? Those are very real issues. In the raw food movement, people will read an old Arnold Ehret book, which talks about the possibility of making protein from the air we breathe, and they’ll just believe they can do it. And yet, not one human being has ever been shown to be able to do it. They’ll read in an old fruitarian book that suggests that we could make B-12 in our gut, like some of the animals do. And even today, if you ask vegans, if they believe that they can make B-12 in their own gut, more than half of them believe that they do. Because I’ve asked that question, and most people have that belief in the vegan movement that we are making our own B-12 in our gut, in a way that we can live off that B-12 and utilize it. In reality, not one human being has ever been shown to be able to do. That’s the science. Not one human being has ever been able to demonstrate that they were living off the B-12 in their gut. In Gabriel Cousens’ latest bulletin on this B-12 problem, he says that the only way a human being could live off B-12 made in their gut would be if they ate their own feces. And I don’t think that that’s going to become a popular option.

Jinjee’s Note: According to Dr. Gina Shaw and others, B12 is created in our bodies in our small intestines, which is where many nutrients are absorbed into the blood stream. Storm has had no animal products in over 30 years and is not B12 deficient so either he is manufacturing it in his gut or he is getting it from the raw fruits and vegetables he eats or he doesn’t need B12 to be a fully functioning 54 year old who looks 30. Now if a person doesn’t have access to fresh organic foods, and if they feel or look deficient, and if they have tried to handle it with a balanced raw vegan diet including juicing and that didn’t work, or if they don’t have the time or desire to do juicing, then perhaps a B12 supplement would benefit them.

Naz: That’s the problem with these variations of the raw-vegan diet, like the one you asked me about specifically. Those variations don’t supply the essential fatty acids that the brain needs; they don’t supply enough of the complete amino acids. They don’t supply enough of the B-12 and other essential nutrients, and that’s why people, after they’ve been on those diets for lengths of time, end up having nutritional deficiencies. So I don’t know that there are exceptions to the rule, but I acknowledge that there might be. What I say about that is that the dangerous thing for everyone who comes to the raw-food movement is to just believe that they are going to be the exception to the rule, when statistically, most likely they’re not going to be.
Jinjee’s Note: I would like to see some of these statistics but put together by a party that doesn’t sell supplements.

Frederic: But then these people, like in the case of that diet, would take your argumentation and dissect it and then explain with science how you can find all these things in their diet. That’s usually what happens.
Naz: You’re right, that’s usually what happens. However, if one takes their science and shows it to a nutritional scientist, the nutritional scientist will pooh-pooh their argument, and will show the flaws in it. It gets as bad that in a lot of these books that are used in the raw-food movement where it lists the amount of protein available in certain food sources, and a lot of those table are just plain old non-accurate. They’re printed in a book, and it looks scientific, but it’s just not true. There are people that believe that there’s a whole bunch of protein in watermelon because one of the old raw-food authors used to claim that and put it in his book. There are people that I personally know who started eating only watermelon, or made that the chief element of their diet, thinking it’s their primary protein source.
In the raw-food movement the problem is that you have a lot of pseudo-science, which doesn’t hold up to the scrutiny of actual science.
Rhio: There are amino acids in watermelon as in every other fruit and vegetable. As far as more concentrated protein, it is in the watermelon seeds, which can be made into a tasty drink.
Naz: True Raw-Vegan Believers
I want to say that you will never convince “true believers” of any “ism” that there are problems with their “ism.” And so I don’t even attempt to do that. For the interview, I simply honestly answered questions that you’ve asked, but I’m not attached to changing anybody’s mind, and I’m not living in the illusion that I’m going to change a bunch of raw-vegan minds, because I’ve already experienced the fact that I’m not going to. Already, all that’s happened to me by sharing honestly the information that I’ve shared with you is that I got kind of blackballed by the raw-vegan movement. They just tried to discredit me, instead of deal with these realities of nutritional deficiencies in a raw-vegan diet.
Jinjee’s Note: Actually, I’m getting lots of letters from people saying that this interview has affected them and that they are considering going off the 100% raw vegan diet.
Naz: But there are some regular folks who come to the raw-food movement because of all the hype and then start to experience problems in their own bodies.

Jinjee’s Note: What you have given us is opinion and personal experience, which is valid. The information that you have given us would be more useful if backed up with studies, articles or sources.

Rhio: Also, most people come to the raw diet in the first place BECAUSE of illness. There are thousands of cases of recovery on this diet that cannot be discredited. Last year when I did a fundraiser for the Ann Wigmore Institute, I had many of her former students come out to support; still recovered, still healthy, still grateful. Brian Clement had a radio show in Florida where he interviewed many people who have been “divested” of their diseases after going through the program at the Hippocrates Health Institute in West Palm Beach. (I use the word, divested, because the allopathic medical system has coopted the word “cured” and made it illegal for any other system to use the term, except themselves.) Even though science does not admit the value of “evidence-based studies”, most health seeking individuals would not discredit it. Evidence-based studies are called “anecdotal” and disparaged. But I believe if you have 1000 cases of people who were healed of cancer, as an example, by the raw/live food diet, this is indisputable evidence that the diet has contributed to their healing. “Science” of course, presently, will never admit this… but enlightenment is coming…

Naz: If they see the information that I’ve given you, a few of them might be moved to take positive steps, which could result in saving themselves a lot of pain and misery,

Jinjee’s Note: Or it could lead them TO a lot of pain and misery.
Naz: and that’s why I bother to share this information at all. It’s not because I have the delusion that I’m going to convince the defenders of an “ism” to give up their “ism” – rather, I’m more concerned about members of the public receiving all this hype, that if you get into the raw-food vegan diet, you’re going to live to be 120 years in really good health. See, I used to believe that, and I used to teach that. I believed it because that’s what people told me, and that’s what was in the raw-food books, and so I parroted it.
Frederic: A Challenge to the Raw-Vegan Movement
Is there anything you’d like to add before we end this interview?
Naz: I want to with a challenge to the raw-vegan movement. Find us one really old raw-vegan. One. I’ve been in the raw-vegan movement for over twenty years, and I have never met a healthy, really old raw-vegan, who’s been on the raw-vegan diet for decades or anything like that. In other words, if by eating the raw-vegan diet, we’re going to live to be a 120 years old and be disease free, then how come, when you attend a national raw-food conference, there any isn’t old raw-vegans there? There’s some in their 60’s and 70s who have been trying to do the diet and have problems in their own lives. But why aren’t there any 100 year old raw-vegans anywhere? The raw-food movement is not new, but was popular in 1800’s, when the first Natural Hygiene movement started advocating the raw diet. Then it was really big in the 1940’s with Shelton. Why have we never seen a single 100 year old raw-vegan? Why has there never been a 90-year-old raw-vegan speaker at any of raw-vegan conferences?
Jinjee’s Note: The raw-vegan movement has always been a fringe movement. It is now for the first time coming into the mainstream. I think we will definitely see some examples of 120 to 140 year old raw vegans in the next 70 years or so. Enough of us have to hold fast for this to come about. What happened to a lot of the raw-vegan gurus of the past is that they were so passionate about sharing the diet that they burned their candle at both ends, working insanely to get the information out there, seeing hundreds of people a week who came to them for healing, often charging nothing, that they overworked themselves. Then when their health started failing they would fall prey to self-doubt, and they would start eating meat. But as we age on the raw-vegan diet we have to realize that we are still mortal, that we will age, and realize that we would age much faster if we weren’t raw, and keep the faith. Another thing that happens is that really successful raw-vegans often go into seclusion as Storm had before I brought him out of it. They get tired of the teaching, healing, public grind. It doesn’t pay that well, and can be an incredible drain. There comes a time when you say, why try to help all these people. Its really simple knowledge. Just do it. I’m going to use my raw energy to just have a good life myself.
Rhio: Just because something hasn’t been done before doesn’t automatically make it undoable. This was one of the arguments that I had with my partner, Leigh. He used to always tell me “Well, show me, show me someone who’s doing it.” and I’d say to him, “We are the new pioneers attempting this. We will prove it.” Not a satisfactory answer for him, although he’s been a very good sport about it. Looking back at the raw food enthusiasts from the last two centuries, we can learn from their mistakes.
We have the right to aspire to something different. A more equitable world, lived in peace, is not something that has been accomplished yet either, but we have the right to dream and aspire towards it. So, I will continue to dream of these things and like Jinjee, work to make them a reality in my own life and lifetime.

Frederic: So that’s your challenge?
Naz: Yes, that’s my challenge. And even if someone were to come up with one 90 year old raw-vegan, I think that my point is still made, because they’d have to struggle pretty hard to find that one. There aren’t a bunch of old raw-vegans! I’m a child of the 1960’s. I was born in the 1950’s, and so, I was shaped by the 1960s, and believe me, in the 1960’s, we had raw-food gatherings then. Ann Wigmore, before her Shelton – all these people existed back then. All of them died. All the great leaders of the raw-food movement in the 1960s are dead. And at no raw-food conferences in the 1960s was there ever a 100-year-old speaker, or a 90-year-old speaker even. And in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, I’ve never met any of them. You hear legends about Dr. Walker…
Jinjee’s Note: Let’s take up this challenge and become the examples he is looking for! Walk that second mile! Any 90+ year old raw-vegans lurking out there?

Rhio: Even if there were, they might not want to admit to it, given that we’re living in a society of ageism. I met a woman in one of my visits to the Ann Wigmore Institute, she was in her forties but looked 30. She told me that recently she was in a social situation where a young man was flirting with her and she was flirting back. Their conversation came to ages and when she told him hers, he noticeably cooled. All of a sudden, they had nothing further in common to talk about. It’s brutal, the attitudes that are held in our society.
Frederic: But he wasn’t a raw-vegan?
Naz: He wasn’t a raw-vegan and he wasn’t a vegan. In one of his books, he talks about how important goat’s milk is, and he was drinking goat’s milk. And even with him, who wasn’t a vegan, definitely there are questions about how old he actually lived to be. Because, you hear all sorts of different numbers. Unless someone actually produces a birth certificate, we don’t really know how old he was. But he’s the only example I’ve heard people give. And then I point out to them that he wasn’t a vegan. So you have to admit that most people who come in and hear the hype believe that if they become a raw-vegan, they are going to experience some great health benefits, and are going to live a long time. And yet, if that’s true, since the raw-vegan movement has existed since the 1800s, and certainly was very popular since the 1940’s with natural hygiene and became even more popular in the 1960s, why aren’t there any old raw-vegans speaking at the raw-vegan conferences?
Final Comments by Frédéric Patenaude
Nazariah’s experience with the raw vegan diet is not unique, although not everybody will experience such dramatic problems. The conclusion we can clearly draw from his experience (as well as backed up by my own experience and research) is:
1. The raw vegan diet is not a guarantee for health.
2. Eating 100% raw is not necessary for optimal health. If this is practiced, it should be done with careful planning.
3. Every vegan should be taking a B-12 supplement to insure optimal health in the long-term.
4. We shouldn’t believe invariably raw-vegan “experts” or what is written in books, because the information is often not accurate.
As for whether we should be vegans or not, I do not necessarily go in the same direction as Nazariah. I do not believe that everybody should start eating some animal products. I believe that every vegan should be taking a B-12 supplement, but also that the inclusion of some animal products in the diet can be useful to many people.
I wish to say that I’m personally not convinced that a vegan diet cannot be healthy. I think it depends on each individual. I personally have found benefits in including some animal products in my diet, and many others have found that too.
There are many health benefits to becoming at least mainly vegetarian or even mainly vegan, as well as increasing the amount of raw fruits and vegetables that we eat.
Jinjee’s Note: Storm has in the past taken groups of young gang kids to McDonalds and bought them all hamburgers, then taken them running in the heat of the high-desert summer in the mountains. He enjoys watching them drop like flies along the trail, as he preaches raw food to them. In conclusion, plenty of evidence is available to support whatever you want to do, raw, vegan, vegetarian, cooked, or SAD. My Mother pulls out studies showing that smoking may be good for you. I don’t know how she finds them, but they are out there! Search your own soul. Examine your own experiences honestly. Experiment with different variations of the raw vegan diet. Maybe the raw-vegan diet is for you and maybe it isn’t. I only hope I have dispelled any fears that the raw-vegan diet is unsafe for everyone in the long-term. And I hope that I have shown that nobody really understands the whole complex composition of foods, diet, and the human body. Science can’t prove very much. One person’s experience can’t prove very much. Human health, the journey of life and death, is a mysterious journey that is not just scientific and not just spiritual but that is a dance between the two, within each one of us, and created by all of us as we move together through the ages towards our breathtaking destiny!
Contact me, Jinjee at info@thegardendiet.com or visit our family online at http://www.thegardendiet.com
Jinjee’s Sources:
* http://www.rawfoods.com/articles/b12issue.html
-article by Dr. Gina Shaw explains well how vitamin B12 is absorbed in the body
* http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/dec2000_report_b12_3.html
-B12 supplements are better than meat for B12 deficiency. Cooking meat may affect vitamin B12
-Symptoms of B12 deficiency include: dizziness, numbness in extremities, chills, erectile dysfunction, irritability, painful tongue, white spots on tongue, and exhaustion
-Americans in general are B12 deficient because of over-cooking of meat and pharmaceuticals which rob the body of B12* http://www.mercola.com/2000/aug/27/vitamin_b12_deficiency.htm
-Tufts Study shows 40% of Americans are B12 deficient
* “Eating for Health and Wellness”
-Joel Robbins, M.D., N.D., D.C., PhD in Bio Chemistry
FEEDBACK from Readers
September 12, 2004
Dear Rhio,
Your email this morning was an interesting read, but there are so many variables to this issue, that I thought I would bring them up, not to play “devil’s advocate”, but to clarify what goes on in the Living Foods/Raw Foods community at least here in the San Francisco Bay Area.
First, what I find somewhat disheartening, though I think an honest appraisal of the community is that we all eat differently. Not everyone drinks wheatgrass, or eats sprouts, or feels chlorophyll foods are the “way to go”. I know, and have heard many people “dis” Dr. Ann, and don’t/won’t follow her program, and then they complain they don’t really feel at optimum health. People think that reinventing the wheel, and coming up with their own scenario is so much better. But those of us old timers who studied with Dr. Ann and who drink, and eat accordingly are not complaining about VB12 deficiency. Eat sprouts and veggie kraut, drink wheatgrass and Rejuvelac, put chlorophyll at the head of the list, and there are no problems. I think it really is simple. Those who are complaining about the program aren’t doing the program. When Dr. Ann developed the Living Foods Lifestyle, she worked through all of the changes she made to it over the years. She lived those changes with everyone who came through her doors. Hundreds of people told her what was working, and she surmised that chlorophyll, in the form of a whole blended food (Energy Soup), was the perfect way to feast on complete nutrition. I’m into the Living Foods Lifestyle for my health and it works, and it works well when you are positive about the changes that occur with the program.
Those who follow a Natural Hygiene program seem to have more problems with food than Living Fooders. Maybe because of not sprouting, or drinking wheatgrass, or eating seaweed, or juicing.
The bottom line: for 100 people who call themselves Raw Fooders, those 100 all eat differently, and with different results, and for someone to make a broad statement about it not working, should clarify what they are doing with their diet.
Thanks again for passing on the info in the community. I appreciate your energy and the resources you bring to the discussion. And thank you for allowing me to “vent”.
I will always defend Dr. Ann. She saved my life.
in peace
Robin
September 13, 2004
Hello,
We all take the food thing a little bit too serious.
Raw food is healing us and it is very good for us. The human body works optimally on a mostly/or all raw food diet.
The whole cooked food/raw food thing, organic raw dairy or not, should be regarded a little more relaxed but in a responsible way. Knowing a good doctor who is into raw foods and has a balanced way of thinking is very important.
I studied with Germany’s most renowned Doctor: Dr. Bruker from the Health Institute in Lahnstein/Germany. He was personally more than 90% raw for most of his life (he died at age 92 in 2001, with all of his original teeth and he died naturally, no disease whatsoever.) This health institute produced over 2200 health practitioners, advocating a mostly raw diet but saying that eating whole cooked foods is still o.k. and if someone wants to eat dairy that’s fine too. Vegetarianism is the key, being vegan Dr. Bruker says is o.k. too.
Basically what is important is that people are not pushed/pressured into a certain way of eating. Because some people are lecturing so much about it and books are written so many etc., we want to be like them, because of the benefits they talk about.
I have talked to many people who are into raw foods, since I am running a raw food business. I have talked to people who are doing well/good on being 100% raw, I have talked to people who are on a 100% raw diet, but they “seemed” miserable (not sick) to me in our conversation.
One “raw mother” bought an organic cow for their two small boys and healed her boys by giving them raw dairy. Another woman from New Jersey drinks regularly raw goats milk, so do others. Other people cannot have dairy at all because their “protein metabolism” is so “damaged” by eating constantly processed foods (white flour, white sugar products) that they can’t eat any animal protein anymore.
Most raw food people are also spiritually inclined and practice some kind of yoga or meditation. or mantra and other things. Most raw foods speakers I know of talked about spiritual practices etc.
India is the motherland of truth and yoga and meditation, and the saints and avatars and gurus have always eaten some form of dairy or other non-meat animal products. Dairy is mentioned in their scriptures (namely the Bhagavadgita). If those saints and gurus are the messengers of truth, would they have told and practiced an untruth, by eating dairy, butter etc?
Your comments are welcome.
PS: People who are severely ill can/should eat 100% for a period of time (only with a medical doctor) until the disease is “gone”, but can choose to add cooked food or dairy back into their diet. However being mostly raw is the key to continued health.
Ibrahim
September 12, 2004
The opposite of dis ease, is ease…
You see what you want to see, and what is inside your head and how you feel, is what manifests in your world. So it’s mental and emotional turbulence not nutritional deficiencies that manifests as self sabotage. A lot of times people look outside themselves to solve problems when, the only way you can solve anything is to look inside. But self sabotage is also what makes you eat things that in your heart of heart you know makes you sick. Well that and a constant barrage of greedy brainwashing from all sectors of society.
That said, I came to raw food because I had cancer. I was supposed to go to the hospital for 5 weeks of chemo and radiation, but after a few days of treatment realized that it was very very wrong. I found a new doctor; she had an MD from the Philippines (that she didn’t renew here), a PhD in TCM, and other assorted degrees and certificates in nutrition and natural medicine and she had come from a tradition of female shamanic healers. Her and her husband have a health store in New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada and the focus of their attention for the last 12 years has been cancer. They both have diverse backgrounds and are very open minded, and the only criteria that they looked for in their research was positive results. They escaped the brainwashing of our modern medical profession (see www.worldwithoutcancer.com) and when I came to them the first part of my treatment was to become 100% raw to create a completely alkaline environment in which cancer cannot survive, immediately, with no transition, and stay that way for 6 months. The rest of the treatment involved various types of cleansing and detoxing, oral chelation etc. But the main part was mental with lots of meditation (which also isalkaline producing). Getting cancer was like tying a big knot in part of my body and curing it was like figuring out how the knot got there and slowly untying it. It was a big ball of blocked energy and repressed issues.
Converting to raw made everything work better and made me feel and look better than I ever have. I experiment with introducing different substances into my squeaky clean system occasionally, refined sugar just makes me sick as does most forms of alcohol (except a bit of sake, it’s they only alkaline alcohol), all dairy immediately makes me look like I’m pregnant and gives me cramps and gas, spicy things and a lot of cooked things now give me indigestion, most non organic fruit burns my tongue and makes my lips tingle and swell… A bit of protein now and then is fine, lightly cooked veggies go down okay. I think back in the day when our bodies were evolving into out present form, we developed harmoniously with our environment and what was readily available to eat, which was fruits, nuts, seeds and leafy greens. That’s why they are the most efficient forms of getting all the building blocks we need and lets our body maintain itself perfectly and deal with any disease. This works best when we aren’t polluting it with tons of toxins internally and externally, which is also why I had to leave the city to get better.
Love your website and the newsletter…
thanks Mary
September 12, 2004
Well done Rhio.
RE: Naz: “Gabriel Cousens, a holistic M.D., has become very concerned about the B-12 issue and is now publishing the results of new research. He says that it’s been demonstrated that 80% of vegans become seriously B-12 deficient. He then lists the problems that can be related to B-12 deficiency, and it’s an incredible list of problems.”
Rhio and Frederick,
The above comment is miss-leading. Gabriel said at the last Raw event in Portland that E3live is “full of human active b12 and is everything they say it is”. www.breathing.com/e3live.htm
mike white
Please send this comment and URL to your respective email lists.
mw@breathing.com
September 15, 2004
Rhio,
Naz is a great “Devil’s Advocate” on the raw food diet. He expresses many very important concerns so many uninformed people (6 billion and counting) have on eating a 100% raw, vegan life food diet. The human race is just now barely re-discovering how to eat the natural diet it evolved from before fire could be created at will.
Imagine a world where the entire human race eats only raw, vegan life food. How wonderful would that be!
Your website is outstanding and provides so much benefit to others.
Thank you! Best Regards,
Jose
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 8:35 AM
From: George Love
To: karen fiero
Subject: Re: Raw Energy Hotline – September 2004 (Part 2)
Dear Jinjee and Rhio,
Thanks for your information about the interview and your commentary. I am also a vegetarian for thirty years but only vegan for four years and raw for only one year. I have been involved in the natural food and healing movement for twenty five of those thirty years.
My comments are limited to premature death.
The scientific principle would not make assumptions based upon a few deaths. There are many causes of death. Heart disease, hypertension and stroke are the top. Lung cancer, colon cancer, breast and prostate are second. Diabetic complications are number three. Immuno-deficiency and infections rank fourth. Not even considered are those who are tired of living. Those who are not emotionally supported. Those who are chronically depressed. Those taking properly prescribed pharmaceutical drugs. Those who don’t get enough sleep, get enough water and did not choose to have joy in their life.
I used to be a fanatic about diet. But there are many more considerations about living than food. People who choose to deny themselves pleasure are surely not living. All things in moderation. Everyone is free to make their own life choices. Mostly all of the vegetarians and vegans I meet are sick. Every once in a while I will see someone with high energy like Karen Fiero. Is it the diet that makes them sick? Or is it the choices that they have made about living? It is really hard to die of starvation. The starving Ethiopians lived approximately seventy days before dying. The jailed Irish revolutionaries refused food for forty days before dying.
It is more likely that the vegans were dehydrated than starved.
There are many records of people 50-100 pounds overweight who lived to be 75 years. And there are many records of seemingly fit people who die prematurely. Living and dying is a choice. And so is diet. It is more likely that emotional stress was the culprit in premature death than diet.
Supplements are necessary only if the nutrients are not in the soil. Eating sea vegetable and taking herbal medicine based on Traditional Chinese medicine will solve most nutritional imbalances. However sometimes my Chinese Medicine teachers have prescribed pork kidney or live carp to balance an issue. The Chinese eat everything. Small birds, shark meat, snakes, frogs, worms, insects. Comparatively speaking according to the China Project a plant based diet is the optimum healthy way to eat.
http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/reports/campbell_china1.html
Much love and respect to you and your work.
G.X. Love, Doctor of Oriental Medicine,
Licensed Acupuncture Physician
Sifu Zhen Wu of Meridian Qigong
www.geoloveheals.com
888-766-8711
September 14, 2004
Bravo Jinjee and Rhio!
I am very glad that you responded to Nazariah’s interview!!! I kept thinking I should but was soo busy and then you two did a thorough and thoughtful job! I find your responses so soft, non-violent and objective and firm at the same time. I couldn’t have done it better and I am totally joining you.
I also had an experience with Nazariah, last year at the Portland Raw Food Festival. He told people in his class that Igor and Sergei eat eggs and dairy, and that is why they look so great. Two ladies from Las Vegas came and asked my family about this and we strongly denied it. They wrote an email to Nazariah, but he continued to claim that we ate dairy. They forwarded his email to me, with questions. I confronted Nazariah twice with my letters, asking where did he get this idea and could he please stop spreading misinformation. He didn’t apologize and didn’t even respond to me. My family hasn’t consumed animal food in the last 10 years. So from my experience, Nazariah is not very careful with his sources of information.
I met MANY people who stopped being raw after reading this interview. They told me that when they went back to cooked food, their health problems came back and they had to start all over. I am so sad to hear these stories. I personally put so much effort into supporting their original choice to sustain a raw diet, so I was quite disappointed. I shared with Frederic my thoughts about all this, and other raw fooders did too, and I am glad to see that he reduced his interview with Nazariah and made it less harsh.
I wish Nazariah and Frederic would be more thoughtful of the consequences of their claims. They need to research their claims before circulating them widely and breeding fear in people. When they make blatant false allegations it affects us all.
Lots of LOVE to you, Ladies!
Victoria
www.rawfamily.com
September 14, 2004
Hi Victoria and Rhio,
Bravo Victoria! Thank you for getting Fred to edit the Naz interview! I think that will help things a lot. I too had many people tell me they stopped being raw due to that interview. I had a client in Belgium, a young woman who I had been consulting for a year on the phone. She was very very drawn to a 100% raw vegan diet, but was fighting some very serious food addictions. She had finally kicked her last two – coca-cola and chocolate, and was finally able to digest food for the first time without pain. Even so she needed constant support to help her fight those doubts that always do creep in. And then after Naz’ article she said she was going to go back to cooked foods. Unfortunately for her that didn’t just mean adding an egg or two; within days she was eating bread again. I felt like I’d lost my dear little friend.
I’m not surprised to hear that Naz makes things up about people. Sorry it happened to you Victoria. He says that he’s caught “many raw teachers eating cooked food”. It seems like it would be quite a co-incidence to even catch one at it, but “many” seems awfully far-fetched. My original response to the interview was very angry and full on “busting” Naz, but I edited it for many days while I let my energy calm down!
Another thing I’m hearing is that many people have stopped going to the boards for support because so many people on the boards are talking about the need for animal products in the diet. What are these people doing on the raw-vegan boards anyway? I wonder if the cattle/dairy/medical industries are planting these people or if this is just a natural occurrence? One of my friends also asked me after reading the Naz interview “Who got to him?” meaning they thought he’d been bought off by corporate players.
I look forward to reading Rhio’s article soon.
Love to you and your families!
Please visit us if you are ever near Los Angeles (we’re in the mountains nearby).
Jinjee
September 13, 2004
Thank you for the wonderful info in the new newsletters!
Megan
September 15, 2004
Dear Jinjee, Rhio,
We in the raw movement should know what really went on with the Florida raw family. A raw friend of mine, Willa Cain, has visited the family and stayed with them in FL. The infant was born without a thymus and should have died within 2 weeks, but because of the nutrient dense foods, albeit the wrong ones – should have been fed breastmilk – the infant lived for several weeks longer anyway. Breastmilk would not have saved it since it had no thymus. Perhaps the mom gave wheatgrass in desperation to save its life.
All the other children were tested to be healthy, they were not emaciated as the press unfairly depicted. They were force fed SAD for a year in foster homes, and immediately began getting sick and emotionally unstable from sugar and pop, meat, dairy. The parents are open to talk to anyone who can help. They need to raise $3500 more for a defense to get their children back, raising $2000 so far.
Hopefully, you can both influence them directly so they do not make raw feeding mistakes. Willa says they are very nice. You can reach them by contacting Willa who has their phone no.
wc08@aol.com
Thank you for any help.
I like your comments on Naz’s interview, and passed them around. I look forward to the pleasure of meeting both of you someday.
All the best,
Eric Rivkin
952 470 9726
September 15, 2004 
Hi, Dave:
If you haven’t seen the following or its predecessors I think you will find it of great interest.
You might also consider asking Naz, Frederic, Rhio and Jinjee (whose interspersed comments lend much additional value) for permission to reprint in whole or segments???
Also for consideration by the authors: Back in my early days as a cub reporter in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War, I interviewed a former Prime Minister renown for his wit, intelligence and outspokenness towards his enemies.
In a country so impoverished that a “hit man” could (and would) extinguish a life for a mere 200 baht ($10.00), I asked this gentleman if he did not fear for his life when he made such accusatory statements about his enemies.
On the contrary, he said something to the effect: “If I just alluded to someone without naming names it could cast aspersions on the innocent without impingement on the guilty. If something happened to me, there might be much speculation but no clear direction to the culprit. By naming names, I remove the threat, not increase it. That’s why I’ve lived so long,” he smiled.
Moreover, he pointed out, when one is not specific it reflects doubt on the speaker’s integrity.
It was a good lesson for me as a reporter: Additionally, the person(s) in question has no ability to defend his/herself, as in the case with Rhio’s cat, etc.;-)
Gerry
Gerry Coffey, Health Educator/Councilor/Public Relations Officer
THE VEGETARIAN UNION OF NORTH AMERICA and
THE INTERNATIONAL VEGETARIAN UNION
September 18, 2004
Hi Rhio,
I wrote this short article in response to the recent newsletter. Maybe its not appropriate, but I felt like articulating my ideas and wrote it anyway.
Cheers
Dermot
Why does it matter? The need to follow.
I have just read with great interest the recent Rhio Newsletter regarding the debate about raw veganism. And the overwhelming compulsion to ask why does it matter has engulfed me. Can a person not simply decide for themselves what they will eat and do for that matter, without having to consult with an “expert” or book or check that it is allowed within the system they are following. Is what Naz said that shocking? Nobody has before wondered why this magical diet has often failed to live up to expectations, claiming in the same way a cult claims that by adopting its structure or FOLLOWING its principles all problems will disappear and happiness of angelic proportions will be achieved. Anyone that’s been around the block has heard this so many times before in so many different variations that it is almost tragically amusing. From Scientology to Macrobiotics, same s*it different smell, and of course varying strengths of odour.
I became a vegetarian by the age of 15; by 16 I was a vegan (cooked). My rhetoric was powerful and convincing, most of my friends became vegetarians and some vegans. I read books and books about the diet, though my principal reason for becoming a vegan was ethics and not health I observed a very off putting phenomenon developing: authority. People would come up to me and ask me was it ok to eat this or that and what my response was to somebody who had said something against the diet etc etc. People were treating me like a dietary expert and I advised to the best of my ability. I was no expert and as this sheep mentality developed it became abhorrent to me; so I had to say “look I don’t know, decide for yourselves.” When I was 19 I quit being a vegan (not for health reasons) and people were very shocked, asking me why! Over the course of a couple of years without my influence I slowly saw most of the converts go back to a “normal” diet. Interesting. Perhaps it would have happened anyway, who knows.
Be it Macrobiotics, Raw, fruitarian, natural hygiene, whatever: there is two essential elements: the guidelines or rules and the following of those guidelines and rules. Now more than ever people need to understand that being a follower is perhaps the most spiritually destructive and physically useless role a human can take up. You cannot follow your way to freedom, enlightenment or happiness you have to make your own way. Navigating from your own head, your own heart and your own balls is the only way to get to YOUR destination.
As 2pac said “Godamn I’m a grown man, I follow no man, nigga got my own plan”
Strict adherence to any set of dietary or religious principles is indicative of fear: the fear of getting lost without this solid reference point. It in many ways is also tied up with the fear of death, of failing if one is to embark on their own journey.
I don’t mean to be obnoxious I’m only calling it as I see it and I have seen a lot of it, people detached from their own instinct, their own heart clinging onto ideologies and leaders for dear life.
So what does it matter what Naz says? It doesn’t matter to me, it wouldn’t even be an issue only that there are followers following and they haven’t confronted a lot of the very obvious questions about the diet, as they were too busy following it.
Peace
Dermot
September 12, 2004
Rhio,
Hi Dear!
I, too, wrote an article commenting on the Nazariah interview. I think you’d enjoy reading it. It’s very nuts ‘n boltsy, dealing with physiology, logic, empirical evidence, and plain ole common sense. It’s at http://health101.org/Nazariah.htm
Feel free to let your readers know about it… it has done a lot to calm some of the concerns generated by Fred’s interview that were expressed to me (you can imagine living in the raw food “capital” of the nation – Atlanta – how I got inundated with concerns).
Love,
Don
September 15, 2004
HI Rio,
Thanks for the interesting article re Nazariah thoughts/theories.
I have been reading his theories for some time and would like to know a little more of his background. Who is he anyway and what makes him and his theories anymore valid than anyone else..he really doesn’t back up anything he states with any “evidence”. He says things like “stuff like that,” and re the Fla., case I believed he stated he was told or heard something..
When he tries to discredit raw foodist by recounting his experience of seeing avowed 100%’ers eating cooked food it’s almost laughable.. If I’m not mistaken this happened a number of yrs ago and he keeps harping about it.. Has he had any new sightings of alleged misdeeds?? Why can’t he tell us who these people? Shouldn’t we have the right to know so that we can question said individuals about the veracity of such sightings?? Oh, I get it I suppose thats’ a noble thing!!
Did some research and seen that he states at the time that he was 46 and had been a vegetarian since he was 17.. Well, how do we not know that some of his problems stem from his many yrs of being a vegetarian??
I feel he has an agenda and/or a need to feed his ego which apparently can be done by believing that he has the “truth.”
Thanks Rhio,
Brenda
PS: Rhio,
I forgot to ask.. Did Dr Walker eat rice that you know of??? I have read a lot by and about Dr Walker but never that he ate rice..find that hard to believe. He mentioned that he added raw dairy products back into his diet but I don’t ever remember reading that he ate rice!!
Brenda
September 14, 2004
Thank you for this Rhio. You are brave to send it out. We all need to question our certitudes at times. I have definitely known some people on these kinds of diets who were convinced that they were getting healthier, while it was obvious to me that they weren’t.
I think it is good for people to consume fewer animal products. However, it’s counterproductive to lose all balance and become a fanatic.
The truth is not eternal – it is a moving target.
Andy Zimmerman
September 12, 2004
dear rhio,
i keep hoping to someday meet you!
anyway, 2 quick comments on the naz thing… (deleted as too personal for posting)
another thing that comes to my mind is that naz says that lots of raw food ‘leaders’ are ill. lots of raw food leaders (vast majority) are not 100% raw. their bodies are constantly on a detox/tox roller coaster, for one thing. some people do ok with this, but my opinion is that 100%, all the time, is most stable and loving for the body and the will.
i have only been 100% for a touch over 2.5 years, so i’m not able to personally comment on being 100% for many, many years. i also went raw/vegan very gradually (took about a decade to ease into it) and consistently, so that may be a factor. i do know that i am in excellent health and youthfulness.
best to you and i am looking forward to someday thanking you in person for how much your hooked on raw book helped me as i was learning about living foods!
Celeste Crimi
Beaverton OR (portland area)
September 15, 2004
Hello Rhio!
I don’t know if you remember me, we met last summer at Jim Tibbett’s raw food retreat in Ct. I spoke after dinner on Sat nite.
I just wanted to drop you a quick note of thanks for your news letter. I always enjoy the topics that you discuss, most particularly the current effort.
I had the pleasure of speaking at the world raw food conference in Portland a few years back. It was my first foray into the raw food world and I must say that I share many of the sentiments put forth by Naz in your column.
That was the event where I first met Jim and i remember getting a rise out of him one morning at breakfast when he asked me what my impressions of the raw food movement were. I told him “that the ego was alive and well here!~” 🙂
I was looked down on out there because i was only 75% raw, but that has been for my entire life! And at this advanced age, I still have yet to have any maladies whatsoever, not a cold or the flu or even a headache. And i don’t know what aches and pains are either.
It just might be that the 25% of my diet that comes from other sources may contain the remedies that are deficient in the totally raw diet.
At any rate, as someone who has had FLAWLESS health for his entire life, it would be impossible for anyone to tell me that what I have done with this precious body has been in error.
The mantra out there in POrtland, and in raw fodland in general is “you are what you eat!” I am in total accord with one of your contributors, and tried to impart to my audiences that we are so much more than that. Always the heretic I guess! 🙂
For now then-
Imagine all the people living life in Peace! 🙂
Ron
More FEEDBACK from Readers
Dear Friends and Readers,
This is the last installment of my September Hotline. Those that have been on my elist for some time know that I usually send out only two or three emails per month. However, I did feel (and hope you agree) that the issues that the Naz interview raised for the raw food community were very important for us to face and explore. I thank all the people who shared their letters, as well as those that shared with me, but did not want to be included in this Feedback section. I learned a lot from the exchange.
Until next time, be blessed in health and all things good, Rhio
October 22, 2004
Below interspersed are some comments by Ric Lambart who has been on a raw vegan diet for 28 years.
… feel free to put my name by my remarks and send it to the people on this list. Sorry I didn’t see this message when it first came in. Ric
Naz: Deaths in the Raw-Vegan Movement
Here, in the Eugene area, where I live, a man in the local raw-food support group died about two years ago. He was only in his forties. For two weeks before his death, he’d been telling the leader of that group that he was having bad chest pains, but she just kept telling him, “oh, it’s just detox, it’s just cleansing.”

Jinjee’s Note: Even on the raw diet you will still eventually (probably) get old and die. Perhaps in rare cases this can even be because of the diet. We are all so different in so many ways and health is dependent on so many many different factors. You have to be in tune with your body and feel whether the diet is working for you. If it isn’t, don’t do it! And yes, often complaints like this gentleman’s heart can be detox symptoms. However if it is your heart or one of your internal organs that is hurting painfully, get it checked out! The medical institution can be useful for diagnosis!
Ric: I’d agree with this plus add that: DeTox can kill, especially if you are already on the edge of the deep chasm over which we will all eventually have to pass. DeTox is just that. It’s a dumping of very, very toxic stuff – it usually feels anything but pleasant, and can be very painful. The pain manifests the toxic passage through the body’s organs and can’t be laughed away cavalierly. Also, we don’t have enough facts here, just David’s short summary of the incident. Diagnosis could be helpful, I’d even agree with that, but being in your forties can be pretty lucky for some of us. I had severe angina back in my late thirties, and could have experienced the same fate, but I went slowly into the raw, rawer venue. Not cold turkey after living a toxic life-style for most of my life. I went stage by stage, and that may have allowed my body to slowly rebuild without any severe toxic waste dumping.

Frederic: And he had been into this for a long time?

Naz: Yes, for a long time. He was one of the founding members of the raw-food support group there. His doctor, when he died, told his wife (the man’s wife) that her husband had died of starvation. His body just starved to death, even though he was eating raw foods everyday. He wasn’t absorbing enough nutrients from it.

Ric: This is another problem area. When we switch to natural eating our body may be very far gone (in it’s digestive powers), which would obvioulsy present some serious problems, when unable to digest and obtain the nutrients taken in especially the vital ones. In this case it would seem an intelligent move to slowly rebuild the digestive system, then go into the pure natural dietary. Also, raw foods don’t give wild-life perpetual life, they just tend to allow the critters to live out their genetic program’s life span more fully. And the pure diet would also tend to give far more strength to the one consuming it. But, one’s genetic deck of cards is pretty well set at and before birth. To me, the incident described by David might be useful, but it sure isn’t enough to use, at least based on the minimul number of salient facts presented, for any sort of final conclusion. Common sense just can’t be thrown out the door, without risking the chance of missing the mark completely.

Naz: I was telling that story to a woman in Santa Monica who is part of a raw-food support group there, and she responded by saying: “Oh yeah, we recently had a guy who died the same way, and he wasn’t very old either. The doctor said that his body just starved for lack of nutrients.” Then I was telling another woman in Florida who’s member of a raw food support group there the same story about both these people, the one in Eugene and the one in Santa Monica, and she responded by saying, “Oh yeah, we’ve had two die that way.”
Ric: Yes, most interesting, but where are the facts, the details. This is ALL hearsay. It’s, in fact, no more than gossip, in my book.
Jinjee’s Note: Would like to hear the specific stories. Remember, a lot of people come to the raw foods diet because they are already very sick, often terminally ill, as a last hope, and sometimes too late. If you get so skinny on the raw diet that you are starving you may need to include some Celtic Sea Salt and Cold Pressed Olive, Hemp and Flax oils in your diet, or a greater variety of fruits and vegetables, fatty fruits, water, and germinated nutmilks. The raw diet is the most nutrient dense diet on the planet. It should not lead to dying of starvation! These people may have been doing one of the many extreme fanatical versions of the raw diet in which they ate either no fruits or no vegetables, no oils or nuts, no water, or just not enough variety or quantity of good quality fresh organic food.

Ric: A good point here: Variety. Not just the fabled “spice-of-life,” but rather a necessity in our raw dietary. Too many raw foodists are almost into mono-dieting, and I can’t believe that’s very rational. After all, no one REALLY knows exactly what we need, let alone just when we need it, so why not stay on the common sense track, mathematically, and spread our intake as widely as we can. I’ve always advocated the need for lots of variety in our diets, simply because there’s not exant anyone who REALLY knows exactly what we need, as I said, or when we need it. Statistically, if we spread around our dietary intake, we are bound to simply encounter what we need, whatever that may be. We’re all different, so what’s my need, may not be yours at all.
Rhio: It’s hard to comment without knowing the details of any particular situation… like flying blind. I agree with Jinjee that there is no diet that is more nutrient dense than the raw/live food diet. Perhaps, as she states, the people were doing the more restricted versions of the diet. I have seen many people become more and more restrictive with the diet, to their detriment. They keep eliminating food after food for one reason or another, until they are eating only a few things. I believe this is a mistake. I promote eating a WIDE variety of foods from all categories except meat, fish and dairy. I also recommend foraging for or growing some wild vegetables (usually called weeds) and including some of those in the daily diet.
Ric: AMEN! Good observations by Rhio. I heartily agree and advocate the same approach.
Rhio: How would the doctor know that the person starved to death for lack of nutrients? Did he do some tests? If so, what kind of tests did he do? Or did he just voice his prejudices when he learned that the person was on a raw diet?
Ric: This could all too easily be exactly the scenario, for all we know.
Rhio: Many people have Celiac Disease and don’t even know it. In this disease, gluten foods, like wheat, barley and rye, create a situation in the intestines which prevents nutrients from being absorbed.
Ric: Very true. For instance: I love unsteamed whole rolled oats soaked in water, but they do NOT like my digestive track – or vice versa. They taste great, they’re raw as raw can be, but they blow me up like a balloon. Why? Simple. They don’t digest.

Naz: Raw Vegan Fallacy #1: Protein
The more I got into looking into this, the more I found that a lot of the things that get preached in the raw-vegan movement just aren’t true. One has to do with protein. There is a real issue with getting enough protein. On a cooked food vegan diet, you tend to eat a lot of beans and grains, and that is a complete protein. But if a person is a raw-vegan, beans and grains would be sprouted, and most people don’t eat such a large amount of sprouts. Even if they do, as soon as you begin to sprout, the protein is converted into something else. So the protein content goes down. The vitamin content goes way up when you sprout, so there are some good things about sprouting. The vitamin content increases, but the protein decreases. So on a raw diet, you think you’re getting your protein from the little bit of fermented seed cheeses, but you can’t eat very much of that because it really clogs you up. So over a period of several years, people become really protein deficient.
Ric: Therefore the need for some nut and seed intake, right? But, the nut thing has become a problem over the last year or so, especially with that once excellent nut, the almond. They are almost all “cooked” now (pasteurized) in order to protect the grower/processor from being sued for contamination. The only way I’ve found to get viable (live) almonds now, is to get them from a small orchardist, who sun dries them. Otherwise they’re run through a kiln to dry and pasteurize them into denatured protein – not good. Walnuts seem to be OK now, but they’re pretty acid forming, so that’s downer. The once fabulous pistachio has gone the same way as have the almonds, sad to say.
Jinjee’s Note: I believe that it is very easy to buy into the protein myth which thousands of vegetarians, vegans and raw foodists have proven to be false. For instance my husband Storm has not consumed animal products in over 30 years and is not deficient in any way. You can go to www.thegardendiet.com/storm.html to see his photos. Mothers milk is 2.2% protein and babies double in size in six months consuming nothing but mother’s milk. Fruit is also 2.2% protein. Vegetables and nuts have even more protein. According to articles I found on the FDA website, cooked protein turns into free radicals that cause cancer. It has also been proven that you don’t need to eat all the amino acids at one sitting for a “complete protein”. Most fruits and vegetables do contain all the amino acids making a complete protein.
Ric: One thing that seems to be overlooked in these commentaries: The need to remain over-all healthy. Food is not the ONLY requisite for true health. There are a goodly group of other requisites, too, as all good Hygienists know. That air, water, and PLENTY of exercise and not too much emotional stress are absolute requisites of optimum health – to mention but a few. We can take in great raw foods, have our mental machinery all screwed up, and end up losing the goodies we’ve eaten because our mind has disabled our physical machinery – including our digestive mechanism.
Naz: Longevity of Vegans
The biggest study on the true mortality rates of vegetarians and vegans was published recently, and the results were partly shown in Ahimsa Magazine, which is a vegan magazine. Even though the results were not good for the vegan movement, that vegan magazine said in an editorial that they felt that in fairness to the readers, they needed to publish the information.
The information was that even though we’ve been led to believe that vegans live longer, they actually live less long than many other dietary categories. Vegans have a high incidence of degenerative brain diseases – Alzheimer, dementia, and things of that nature.
Ric: I’d sure like to see that study. Some of these studies are more than flawed. After all, look at the MASSIVE study done in China – the one noted in John Robbin’s Diet for a new America. The longest living peoples are certainly vegetarians, maybe not vegans, but the fact that veggie folks live so much longer than others, has to mean something significant, wouldn’t you think? And, again, many raw fooders are so overly focused on their eating habits, that they miss out on all sorts of otherwise crucial health factors in their myopia over foods.
Naz: In the past, all of the positive statistics about vegans, all the “less this” and the “less that,” all the good things that were taught in books like John Robbins’s Diet for a New America – all those statistics weren’t from studies from large groups of people who actually died. They were just extrapolated information. It was like, John Robbins would say, “Okay, fat is one of the things that cause heart disease. Vegans are eating 30% less fat, therefore they will die of 30% less heart disease” It was all theory. As it turns out, there are certain things that are good about the vegan diet – such as less fat, less cholesterol – but the problem is that there are certain deficiencies in the diet, even in the cooked-vegan diet, that actually cause vegans to have more of certain serious diseases, especially brain-related ones, because it’s all having to do with the central nervous system.
Ric: Disagree. Yes, there was some speculation there, but the China study was very well formulated and objectively conducted. It was massive in its size, so should bear far more weight than the numerous other tiny studies done over the years by other researchers. The fat thing may have been a bit speculative, but hardly out of logical bounds. And, there was a distinct, and growing difference in the city and country dwellers in China, if you recall. The city folks consumed much more animal protein/fat in their lives, than did their fellow citizens in the countryside.
Jinjee’s Note: Insurance companies will give you lower rates if you are vegetarian, and even lower if you are vegan. If anyone has done their homework on health and longevity statistics it would be the insurance companies.
Ric: Now this makes sense. REAL actuarial data are what count. It’s been well known for a long, long time, for instance, that Seventh Day Adventists (they admit to only about 50% of them being vegetarian) FAR outlive other Americans – and they experience FAR fewer degenerative diseases – and these folks (with isolated exceptions, of course) are cooked food vegetarian, too.
Fred: Are there other studies to back up your claim that vegans live less long than meat eaters?
Naz: See, over the years, I’ve read many studies that have caused me to come to this conclusion. But I’ve also spoken to many experts, such as Gabriel Cousens, who have clinical experience with vegans. But it goes back to the 1990’s, when Vegetarian Times, which is a major magazine, published the results of a study that was geared to just women, and tried to see which ones lived longer, between meat eaters, lacto-ovo vegetarians and vegan women. It turned out that the lacto-ovo vegetarians lived the longest, the meat eaters lived the next longest, and vegans lived the least long. And that was in Vegetarian Times approximately in 1990. So as the years went by and studies were done, it just became sort of overwhelmingly obvious that a lot of the things that we believe in the raw-food movement and the vegan movement literally aren’t verifiable by science, and science actually discredits a lot of these claims.
Ric: And, I question the “authority” that produces these allegedly “scientific” studies, big time. The only way to believe these studies, is to study them thoroughly to verify their objective standards and protocols. Most of them are funded by vested interests.

Naz: The good news is that a vegetarian diet, which includes some dairy and eggs, appears to be very healthy. That’s the good news, is that we can be healthy vegetarians. It’s extremely questionable whether very many of us can be healthy vegans. It might be possible, but that it doesn’t seem possible for the majority. The majority of vegans are actually not healthy.
Ric: Again: I have to state that my 28 years being all raw – and longer than that being completely Vegan – have given me the sharp view that MOST folks get into this dietary because they have some very serious health issues in the first place. I had some, myself, although that’s not why I happened to clean up my killing dietary habits. And, again, I evolved into the all raw routine quite slowly, too.
Jinjee’s Note: Naz is perfectly correct in saying you can find articles to prove either side of any story. You can read scientific medical journals online and you’ll find plenty of conflicting evidence. There just isn’t enough true non-biased scientific study being done in the field of nutrition. Who would fund such studies? Organic farmers? Big business doesn’t benefit from the simple truths of health. My personal belief is that The Creator put everything here that we need to be totally 100% naturally healthy without needing to use or kill any animals.
Ric: I already made similar comments to this undeniable fact, so I agree with her observations. If you are ever in the court game (I’ve spent too much of my own life in that theater venue!), and game it is, you know that you can find an “expert authority” to argue your side, just as can the opposition find the same caliber of “expert authority” to argue theirs. “Science IS and has always been, “FOR SALE,” most unfortunately.
Rhio: The study that Naz cites in Vegetarian Times was comparing vegans with the other two groups, but it wasn’t comparing raw food vegans specifically. I think there may be a huge difference between a raw food vegan and a cooked food vegan’s health. I have not seen the article but it doesn’t seem to be a study that applies to the raw food diet.
Ric: Excellent point. From a completely unscientific point of view, from my own subjective observations over many, many years, cooked food Vegans and even vegetarians, are, as a group, not at all to be envied for their primal quality of health.
Naz: B-12 Deficiency
Most vegans are not getting enough B-12. It’s very important to take a B-12 supplement if you’re on a vegan diet, and a lot of vegans don’t. A lot of the sources vegans have believed they were getting their B12 from actually aren’t good. For instance, the blue-green algae, the spirulina, sea vegetables, all of those things are listed as having a lot of B12, but studies have shown that they’re analog B12, which can’t be utilized by the human body. Analog B-12 competes for receptor sites with the real usable B-12. It results that eating any of those things, it’s not only that you’re not getting the B-12 you think you’re getting, you’re actually going to get less, because the analog B-12 clings to the limited numbers of receptor sites in the body for real B12 – and then real B-12 can’t cling to it, because it’s already taken by the analog B-12. So, people who have been eating those things in the vegan movement thinking that it’s a natural source of B12 and that they don’t need to take a B-12 supplement, become very B-12 anemic.
Ric: To me, this topic has already been beat to death. No comments from me.
Naz: Gabriel Cousens, a holistic M.D., has become very concerned about the B-12 issue and is now publishing the results of new research. He says that it’s been demonstrated that 80% of vegans become seriously B-12 deficient. He then lists the problems that can be related to B-12 deficiency, and it’s an incredible list of problems.
Jinjee’s Note: I believe that supplements are far inferior to foods. Hippocrates said “Make Food your Medicine”. If you simply can’t eat food, then take supplements. Otherwise, all the nutrients you need can be found in fresh fruits and vegetables, including B12. B12 is being found in more and more fruits and vegetables. According to Joel Robbins, M.D., N.D., D.C., PhD in Bio Chemistry, author of “Eating for Health and Wellness” B12 is found in:
Alfalfa leaves
Bananas
Comfrey leaves
Concord grapes and raisins
Ginseng
Hops
Mustard greens
Plums and prunes
Sprouts
Sunflower seeds
Wheatgrass
A very prominent healer was defending his selling of supplements, even though I wasn’t attacking him about doing so. His final argument was that “you don’t just need health, you also need wealth and I have 200 clients that buy $100 worth of vitamins a month”. I think he was looking for us to give him some kind of approval to make him feel good about doing this. To tell you the truth, I really don’t know enough about science, medicine, and the human body to say whether supplements are good or bad. When I don’t know something I always go with nature. Therefore I don’t take supplements or sell them.
Ric: I like Jinjee’s thinking, here. All our sciences are supposedly “Natural Sciences,” since they study nature and its laws. That’s all that science really is. So, why not look deeply into the dynamics we’re able to discern out there in “nature,” which seems to be what Jinjee is doing. Look at what happens in nature, apply our objective rationality, our objective talent, and come to conclusions, being careful to set aside our biases (and we all have them). This way we are, in fact, being scientific, in our own way. There are people doing this sort of good thinking every day – and some of these folks are coming up with innovations and inventions that literally knock off some of the largest most well-funded of corporate giants. Formally trained scientists have no monopoly on the TRUTH, in fact their built-in biases and educational prejudices often get in their way and prevent them from uncovering what they officially seek: the TRUTH. Look, for example, at Permaculture. It is likely the most advanced form of agriculture, yet it was developed primarily by Bill Mollison, whose only degrees are those bestowed upon him by way of honorary recognition of his achievements. In fact, he mentioned to a news reporter many years ago, in L.A., when I was at a meeting he held, while in the States, that he was glad he wasn’t brain-washed by a formal education – or he’d likely not have developed Permaculture – at all.
Jinjee: Storm hasn’t taken any supplements in over 30 years. Some people do seem to be helped by them. It is a personal decision. It could be that people who don’t have access to fresh organic produce year-round might be helped by high quality supplements. Pharmanex is one of the supplement companies who grow all the plants organically and extract the nutrients intact for proper chelation and better absorption. It made so much sense I almost went in for them until my un-supplemented family scored much higher on their scan tests of anti-oxidants in the tissues than those who took these high quality supplements regularly. This scanner was designed by Pharmanex to measure overall health and nutrient levels. There may be better supplement companies too. I haven’t researched this as I don’t intend to take supplements. I just happened to meet some Pharmanex promoters at a healthfood store and took their test.
Rhio: B12 becomes available in food through the action of bacteria that grows on or is present in/on food. Since a family of yeasts and bacteria is what causes foods to ferment, B12 would be present in fermented foods, as well as the foods that Jinjee mentioned. B12 as well as other vitamins of the B-complex family are produced in a well functioning intestine.
Ric: Rhio is on target here, in my opinion. The key is in her last words: “. . .in a well functioning intestine.” If your gut is disfunctional, how are you going to get what you need from your food – raw, or otherwise?
Rhio: Some have said that Vit. B12 is produced in the intestine past the point where it can be absorbed. I’m not sure I believe that to be true, but small amounts of Vit. B12 are also secreted directly into the duodenum (first part of the intestine) from bile. Dr. Robert Young says in his book Sick and Tired? that as long as you have plenty of friendly bacteria (probiotics) Vit. B12 is synthesized.
We are living in an age where everything is washed and over sanitized, but if we were living closer to the earth, like on a farm or even if we cultivated a backyard vegetable garden, we could occasionally eat our veggies straight from the garden without washing them and that should, with the right soil environment, provide us with some B12.
Ric: Again, I’d like to insert that my observations have been the same as Rhio’s here. We are often TOO sterile, and have missed out on some important bacterial and other trace factors as a direct result. I’d suggest that such a conclusion is the result of using one’s good common sense.
Rhio: Because B12 is so important, I suggest getting it checked out if you are concerned about it. I don’t think most raw food enthusiasts would have a problem IF they ate a wide enough variety of foods, including fermented foods, seaweeds and pollen. Pollen, is from flowers but it is collected by the bees on their feet, so methinks there may be some bacterial action there which provides B12.
Ric: Another interesting thought. Never thought of that one, myself.
Naz: Vegetarianism Versus Veganism
Where I come out on all this, is that when we look at our own family lines, most of us have not had a vegetarian ancestor. The vast majority of us, living in America, have not had a single vegetarian ancestor, going back all the way to this almost countless line of generations. And certainly, there was not a vegan in that family line. Therefore, that’s a pretty radical thing to do, if you look at it that way, to all of a sudden become a vegan, when no one in your genetic line has been a vegan, going all the way back to perhaps thousands of years ago. We’ve been eating animal products for all that time, so the human system is expecting to get nutrients that way.

Jinjee’s Note: Yes, we have adapted to eating meat and dairy. But the way we have adapted is to have brought into being a society in which death by disease is normal and expected.
Rhio: Going back to our vegetarian or vegan diet is NOT a shock to the system; RELIEF would be a better description. It’s NOT radical to eat as nature intended no matter how long we have flaunted her laws. Of course there is detox and adjustments to contend with in the beginning but it does NOT take generations to adapt. We don’t have to evolution into our… original diet…
Ric: Rhio’s got my vote.
Jinjee: My own experience with his diet has produced only incredible results, healing, weight loss and improvement. Many people have also reported amazing healing, weight loss and well-being on Storm’s version of the raw diet. However even people who have experienced nothing but good from the raw diet will sometimes be so scared by an article such as Naz’s interview that they will abandon the raw vegan diet completely and go back to a bad cooked food diet with all its related health problems. When do we start trusting our own experiences?
September 15, 2004
Dear Rhio,
Thanks so much for your concern. The hurricanes have been narrowly missing us here in south Florida and aside from losing some good fruit a little early all is well.
The Andressohn’s case is still pending. Yes no trial as of yet. Dr. Flora Van Orden who worked with Dr. Ann Wigmore for 25 years bailed them out with a credit card after 99 days in jail. Ever since they have been under house arrest. Their chidren in state custody being fed cooked foods and getting sick for the first time in their lives. No contact not even phone calls are allowed. This has gone on for about a year now. Being indigent they were appointed lawyers by the state. These lawyers blocked every defense angle we raised by doing nothing. Finally an attorney has agreed to take the case, cut his fees in half and we are raising money to pay the lawyer and thier legal expenses.
I have transferred a video of Dr. Ann Wigmore onto DVD, cleaned up the sound, edited and split it up into 5 chapters. A 6th chapter is new footage of Dr. Flora giving an addendum and speaking about wild edible weeds. Anyone who gives $100 dollars or more will recieve one of these DVD’s professionally packaged by Living Food Films and David Haylock a raw foodest in Miami.
For a donation of $150 dollars I would include a copy of my CD Brand New Day as a way to raise money for them.
The trial is scheduled for January and it has the potential to be very political and set a precedent for raw food lifestyles. We now know the facts of the case. The baby had two birth defects making the state’s case of manslaughter by malnourishment unprovable in a court of law. Depositions of over 40 people by the prosecution could not disclose any negative witnesses either. The state is down from 50 years to time served and probation if they will just take a plea and admit some guilt. They will not accept as they only guilty of depriving the children of all of societies illnesses associated with a cooked food diet! In the autopsy, suspected thymus tissue was microscopically analyzed and turned up negative! The medical examiner took tissue from the area where a thymus normally would be and could not find a trace of thymus. To say that raw foods could atrophy a thymus beyond a microscopic trace is beyond ludicrous. Any child born without a thymus will die regardless of the diet. Most die within 2 months. If anything the raw foods diet allowed this baby to carry on for 51/2 months suggesting superiority in my opinion. When the baby had trouble breathing the parents called 911. The ambulance arrived with a policeman who told the parents they could not accompany their child to the hospital. Lethal doses were given the child in an effort to save her. Then the police arrive to give the bad news and immediately start interrogating the parents. This evidence was thrown out of court as they did not read the miranda rights to them. On record is 4 different weight for the baby. The picture of an emaciated child released to the media is one of the child after all the drugs had been given her and perhaps several months after death. they attempted to have the baby cremated to dispose of the evidence before a proper defense could be mounted.
All those who home school, are vegetarian, vegan or raw foodist, or just feel the state dictating what one has the right to feed and raise and teach a child is wrong should take an interest in this case. We all need to get behind them. They have valiantly held out living under house arrest and patiently waiting for justice and the powers of truth to vindicate them.
I thank you for your interest and any help or suggestions you could give!
I appreciate all you do for raw foods and have been reading your fielding the tough questions in your newsletter. You are amazing and I send you much love and many blessing of peace!
Tim Tye
timco77@bellsouth.net
Dear Tim,
Thank you for bringing us up to date with the information on the Andressohn’s. A very sad situation, but we would like to be part of the remedy in some way, so to increase the value of your $100 or $150. package, we would offer to donate 100 of my books (Hooked on Raw) to the project. I will do a special hotline on the situation and let’s see if we can get the family back together.
Please send the family our blessings and we will hold a positive thought for them in our mind/soul.
We’re so glad that your house and farm were spared in the recent hurricanes!!
With blessings and peace,
Rhio and Leigh

September 12, 2004
Greetings Rhio,
May this find you well and thriving in your world. I am well, enjoying my life here in Ojai.
I appreciate your commitment to the process and how you languaged your perspective on the Fred/Naz issue. I agree with you completely.
Do you personally know Jinjee and Storm? Have you met them, or only through online contact?
Many Blessings of well being to you,
Chakra Earthsong
Dear Chakra,
I hope to meet them and you on my trip to CA in Janury-February, 2004
With blessings,
Rhio
September 16, 2004
Dear Rhio,
This is Rick Kump, remember the young guy you met in Florida and let stay in your apartment last year in New York :-D?
I wanted to let you know that I’m following your work and rooting for you. I’ve been 100% raw for well over 2 years now, and I’m setting a great example at my university. My main issue is still animal rights, and promoting veganism (along with connecting everything to God and spirituality), but thank you (and Jinjee!) so much for this response to that letter. Naz’s letter was based on one man’s experience. I’d like to meet him to prove to him the success of a teenager who went on raw foods against his parent’s wish and STILL thrives on the lifestyle. Granted, 2 1/2 years may not be that much for some, but it’s a LONG TIME for me, and I don’t see myself turning back. Always moving forward.
I think it’s good to remind your readers that being raw is not about being “RAW.” It’s not about the label, it’s about the health and peace of mind.
Peace and God bless you and your work! You’re inspiration for my own work for peace and health in the world.
Rick, from Titusville Florida
veganrick@aol.com
PS–Thank you a while ago for the juicer. I make frozen banana ice cream for everyone who comes over to my house. A teenaged neighbor even said “I’m proud of you, Ricky!” HA! There is so much hope for the planet!

September 16, 2004
this is an interesting project and i like what you have done to insert comments as you go along … and to keep the length user friendly on each installment…
your comments are as i have grown to understand the real vs the not so real are virtually perfect (that is we agree)
the two guys i would like to have an opportunity to add a new layer of comments are brian clement and jordan rubin…i am sure you know brian…DO you know jordan?…i had an interesting raw vs vegan vs veggie vs meat conversation with him and i really wish i had videotaped it…he would do it again and has some interesting remarks on the subject of some of the people who seem to thrive and some who do not on vegan…then there is the blood type book which brian will say is nonsense (he is type O and maybe anna maria too).
… your efforts coupled with your philosophies in general put you in a group of single digit few in this whole debate and need for accurate and CONVINCING and ACCURATE information with testing and numbers and more…it’s time for another conversation when you have time…
BACK TO THE INTERVIEW
i personally wonder how the Naz fellow (i do not know either of the guys) ends up with the authority he seems to have laid on here…oh well…
there are a couple of concerning aspects of this entire dialog and its potential effect on the casual reader:
1) i may have been sleeping but i have not yet seen the word “organic” appearing anywhere
2) virtually all the remarks about The “Science” are without footnote or reference and clearly some (many) of the statements are either untrue or make leaps that are illogical (but you see that)
3) some of it sounds like the pre iraq fear program just on the raw subject
nonetheless there is some truth to some of what is being said (isn’t there always) and it all needs to be filtered carefully and the science — real backed-up science — documented to show what is really going on…[that is my film-in-progress for some years now].
Naz: {referring to Gabriel Cousens} He now believes that problems with B-12 in the vegan movement are much more severe.
this is a big and true one…
see ya!!
david haylock
living food films
www.livingfoodfilms.com
miami
Dear David,
I’m glad you like the project. It HAD to be done… but took a lot of work!! Yay!
Nazariah, as I understand it (I could be mistaken), is the head of the Essene Church in USA. Maybe that is why what he says carries so much weight. The Essene’s were an ancient culture, who were raw foodists.
With blessings,
Rhio
September 13, 2004

Dear Rhio,
I just wanted to take this opportunity to say thanks so much for the great job you are dong keeping the raw community up with what’s going on politically in government, as well as with this outstanding look at Naz’s controversial interview on the B12 question. It is very confusing to the public when they attend a festival with different speakers (all with their own agenda) or read an article where we, in the raw community, disagree. Of course we can not agree on all the aspects of something as personal and varied as diet, so I try to focus on what we have in common. What you are doing with this article is great because it offers a balanced approach and helps alleviate fear.
I just want you to know how much I respect you and appreciate your approach.
Love and Blessings,
Cherie
Living Light…
Creating a global community,
Built on love and acceptance,
With raw food and conscious living at its foundation.
www.RawFoodChef.com
September 29, 2004
Hello, beautiful ladies!
Thanks for your passionate discussion with naz.
We are so far from natural I don’t know if we’ll ever figure it out with our minds, but when we listen to our bodies, they lead us to raw foods, don’t they? I FEEL good on raw. And that’s my test.
I thought naz’s idea about evolving out of the meat diet to raw food was humorous.
Here is an article someone sent me about the evolution of diet from hunter-gatherer to farming. I don’t think we ever made it to hunter or farmer — I think we are naturally fruit/greens people. 🙂
Best wishes in all you do!
Love,
Patricia Robinett
Eugene, Oregon
Rhio: I couldn’t figure out how to get the PDF (article) she sent me linked here. Anyone know, please send instructions. Thanks.
In a message dated 9/12/2004 8:58:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sharon writes:
{In regards to the quote in Part I}
Interesting point, I think everything these days is geared towards the ears and eyes but more so for the ears. Look at all the types of stimulation that’s been developemented in the past 2 decades. Boom boxes, cell phones, gameboys bells and whistles have gotten louder, the noise from the subway doors and announcements have a higher pitched tone. What else? Asprin sales are up over 1000% in quantity of production due to worse headaches. Extra strength doesn’t cut it anymore, people need 2. Get my point? Hope all is well with you. Nice to recieve something from you. It’s been quite a while. I think the last time I received something from you was when my friend Bill Milmoe came to town back in March. Hmm.
Take care.
Sharon
Dear Sharon,
You are very right, but Fred Allen was a comedian, radio variety show host from the 1940s and I thought the quote was hilarious… we really need to laugh… especially in today’s political climate.
I don’t know why you haven’t been receiving my emails. I had a July Hotline and I also sent something out in August. You can see the July Hotline at my website. The August email was about Vitamin B12 and how the emissions from catalytic converters in cars are depleting Vit. B12 in humans. The article is on the website – it’s still in the What’s New? section.
Hope everything is splendid.
With blessings and peace,
Rhio
September 13, 2004
You know Rhio, after I chose to send that e-mail to you, I wondered why I felt a need to even write it. I really thought about it. I thought for a moment, who is Fred Allen? I had a feeling it was someone who wasn’t around anymore so I called my parents. They jarred my memory at that point. I told my father the quote and he cracked up. It was at that point that I subtly lightened up a bit, only a bit. I think the need in me had to do with only wanting to find some outlet to vent my frustration at that trend. I have thoughts and idea in my head and I often find it challenging to get them out or even have people interested in hearing them. I suppose I saw an opportunity and took it. I apologize for the selfishness, but I also thank you. I became a better person for it. As for seeing the humor in it, I really do.
It’s always lovely to have your words and voice grace my home be it through the www, music, or even in person. Thank you for responding.
Sharon
Dear Sharon,
You weren’t selfish at all. You were only pointing out the additional truth for this generation and I absolutely agree with you.
With blessings,
Rhio
September 13, 2004
I am so grateful to see what you wrote here!
Quote – Rhio: “I seriously doubt that the raw food diet could cause a shortage of protein. More problems are created in a body by too much protein than too little. Dr. Schnitzer of Germany has written extensively about this in many of his books. All fruits and vegetables are LOADED with amino acids, and as most of us know, amino acids are the building blocks of protein. When a seed, bean or legume is sprouted it does not diminish its protein, (as Naz suggests) instead the protein is broken down into its simpler amino acid form. If a person eats meat or dairy, the body must first break down the protein in these products to amino acids before they can be utilized. The body builds thousands of different kinds of protein out of different formulations of amino acids. There is no such thing as an incomplete protein – this is simply a myth created by the meat and dairy industries who profit from people believing their propaganda. The body has an amino acid pool from which it draws to build proteins at any time. Unless a body is starving to death, it will always have amino acids to build the proteins it needs. The body also recycles 70% of its protein waste.”
Thank you! We live in a world of almost universal misdiagnosis, even at autopsy time.
Best,
Elchanan
September 15, 2004
Rhio,
This is the best article I have ever read on the subject of a raw, vegan, life food diet. Your comments and Jinjee’s comments provided me with the needed insight to go 100% raw, vegan, life food (wild or organically grown, low-glycemic, low starch, balanced with vegan raw oils). I feel it really is the optimum diet for ALL of humanity. Each individual must however fine tune her/his daily food selection and recipes selection. As you know, cooking never really helps food be better. We didn’t evolve on cooked food.
I have personally felt so much better on raw, vegan, life food but have desperately clung to cooked comfort food in the evenings much to my dismay every morning afterwards — like having a hang over. Jinjee is brilliant in her knowledge of life food. … however Naz has very valid points about some body types (like mine) that are already naturally thin, have much more of a challenge going 100% raw because their digestion system is weak from a lifetime of cooked food, meat and milk. They simply just need to drink green, balanced vegetable juices from a juice extractor and blends from a Viti-mix with a couple of delicious raw, vegan dinner recipes perhaps warming the food to 105 degrees for comfort.
Supplements: You had excellent thoughts on taking supplements. No one knows for certain yet but here is an idea — With the addition of a few well thought out food based supplements and super foods, it may be possible to improve health beyond a purist diet of wild and organically grown land vegetables, seeds and fruits. Just a thought. I take food based B-12, B-6, folic acid and powered sea vegetables (marine minerals) from David Jubb. Also a few super foods and Hawaiian spirulina. I know many raw food speakers and advocates and your kind views about them and the industry are very accurate and well said.
Best Regards,
Jose

September 15, 2004
Rhio
Fred refused to print the article by Gabriel that was in direct response to this article. The article can be found at www.treeoflife.nu/ewellness.html. I can send you the word format of this article if you need it.
Note we sell B12 supps that are produced in a lab. Also when the effects of a B12 deficiency are apparent nerve damage has been done that is very difficult to correct.
Much Love
Thank You
Philip Madeley
Tree of Life Cafe
PO Box 928
771 Harshaw Road
Patagonia
AZ 85624
520 394 2589 ext 254
cell 520 604 6139
cafe@treeoflife.nu
www.treeoflife.nu/cafe.html

September 15, 2004
Dear Rhio –
how beautiful to receive a newsltr again from you on health! I feel it’s been so long… not that I don’t love your politics, I do, but I learn so much from you when you write about health. I wish so much I had your knowledge and experience – the only raw fooder I ever met was my food coop friend Pat Mezzullo living down the road from me in Brooklyn. I’ve immediately added Jinjee’s words to http://eatsprouts.com/diet.html.
… Thanks million for including me in the latest issue. I’m very grateful.
love – Val
September 28, 2004
Comments interspersed from Tim Tye – email: timco77@bellsouth.net
Naz: Many children who are being raised on a raw-vegan diet are suffering various nutritional deficiencies that affect them later in life.
Tim: The same or much worse can be said about a child raised on cooked foods. The fact is everyone is nutritionally deficient however raw food children have tested less deficient than cooked food children. Why the double standard? Why not examine the problems with cooked food and formula? Just because it is the norm of society does not make raising children on cooked foods the right thing or the best thing to do. Why don’t you ask someone who has successfully raised three generations of raw food children about it? If you do not know who that is, apparently you have not really researched what you are speaking of. You are so quick to point out alleged problems without properly researching the concept. Are you a raw foodest? Have you ever raised a child on raw foods? You have no business speaking about something you have no experience with! Why are there so many overweight cooked food children with diabetes, heart conditions, and asthma if cooked foods is so good for a child?
Naz: And even if a person believes that perhaps a child can be raised successfully on a raw-vegan diet, they owe it to their child to research the issue before attempting to actually raise the child as a raw-vegan.
Tim: Even if a person believes that perhaps a child can be raised successfully on a cooked-food diet, they owe it to their child to research the issue and compare it with alternatives like the raw food diet to see which really is healthier. They owe it to their child to really find out about the ills of cooked food before forcing that on the child. They need to look at their own life and their own illnesses that resulted from being raised on cooked foods and decide if they want to put their child through that hell! They need to get motivated to make a change for the better and do the more challenging thing like explore the possibilities of raw foods and talk with those who are currently successful at raising raw children. They need to find out why people have switched to raw foods and what illnesses were remedied by switching. People have children all the time with no research what so ever. Who are you to assume that a parent wanting to raise their child on raw foods does not do research? Of course they do. It is a very different approach and therefore takes much thought, planning and effort. It is far easier to give a child formula and follow directions on the label than it is to make baby food fresh each day with wholesome organic hand picked ingredients. How many parents giving a child formula ever read the labels much less understand what each word means and/or do research on every listed ingredient? Do you have any idea what preservatives do to a child? Do you have any idea what pesticides do to a child? How many parents go to the trouble to buy organic baby food even if it is cooked?
Naz: I know friends of the family of the infant that died recently in Florida, and they tell me that even the older children in that family were emaciated and looked like Nazi workcamp inmates.
Tim: The Andressohn family of which you were speaking of yet apparently did not know their names, have no “friends” who would make such outrageous comments. I actually met these children myself and they are petite just like their parents. The children only weighed – a pound to 3 pounds less than the standard for a cooked food child of the same age. They were so healthy they never had to go to a doctor and had no obesity problems either I might add. They never had colic, headaches, fevers, pneumonia, asthma or bronchitis as is so common among cooked food children. They just looked thinner than all the other fat children we are used to seeing. Plump children are malnourished as well. Just because the food they are given swells them up does not mean they are properly nourished and truly healthy. They by no means looked like Nazi work camp inmates nor were they emaciated and you should be assumed of yourself for repeating such outrageous hearsay about the lives of these wonderful children when you yourself have not seen them in person. What gives you the right to comment so absurdly?
Has anyone even asked to see any pictures of the children before all this happened? I looked into the whites of their bright wide-open carefree eyes and saw the most content and quick learning children I have ever seen. They were not destined to be football players but they could name every fruit tree in my yard and tell me why they like them so much. I wonder if you could do that? The oldest child in kindergarten age at the time was reading in the second grade level. Even the DCF workers assigned to monitor the children’s progress talked about how intelligent the children are. If you could have seen their skin and the whites of their eyes and the brightness and life force in them you would believe no such lies.

Jinjee’s Note: That family fed their children about five different kinds of foods only. Avocado, corn, and three other things. It was a freak situation.
Tim: She rarely if ever gave them corn because it is hard to get organically and difficult to digest. She fed them avocado, parsley, celery, romaine lettuce, kale, collard greens, onions, garlic, tomatoes, cucumbers, bell peppers, and almond milk with fresh coconut water and flax seeds. Bananas, apples, star fruit, oranges, mangoes, Mamay, sapotes, grapefruits, tangerines, leeches, longans, macadamia nuts, pine nuts, broccoli and cauliflower and some carrots just to name a few in no particular order of importance and certainly more than five. In fact such a wide variety of fresh organic foods you probably have no idea how good the diet was. We need help in getting the truth out not perpetuating unsubstantiated rumors!
The first lies in the case said the children had rickets but the radiologist report came back with a clean bill of health on all the children and the court record was corrected to reflect they did not have rickets! After the court ordered the children’s diet changed to the Standard American Diet they suffered asthma, bronchitis, and pneumonia for the first times ever in their lives! We need your help to spread truth and not perpetuate the lies. We need your help to get those children back. The parents have been very patient but are grieving to get their children back. The parents were charged with one count of manslaughter and 4 counts of child
neglect and initially looking at a maximum of 50 years. Why do you think the prosecution has reduced that to a plea bargain of time served and probation for manslaughter? Could it be the facts are coming out in favor of the Andressohns and the prosecutor has no case? Could it be that if you charge someone with manslaughter and neglect from dietary malnourishment that the autopsy has to show that there were no other health conditions in order to convict him or her? Could it be the prosecutor had evidence of a birth defect in the autopsy yet charged them anyway? Are you aware that a child born without a thymus gland will die no matter what you feed them?
Why don’t you call the parents and talk to them before you continue the negativity? She would be glad to talk to you and tell you the truth. She is on house arrest so you can reach her night and day at your convenience. What if this was you being falsely accused and you had no money to defend yourself properly and had to accept court appointed defense lawyers who are overburdened and must receive their paycheck from the same state that hires the prosecutor? I have their permission to give you their phone number so you can get the facts firsthand. Please help us get the truth out! Please help us end this travesty of justice!
Tim
timco77@bellsouth.net
September 26, 2004
Comments interspersed from Bob Avery
Naz: Yes, like I was indicating, and it’s really complex. What we know, based on that article, the research published in the American Vegan that I cited, is that vegans die more of degenerative brain diseases.
Jinjee’s Note: This is probably from all the processed TVP and soy products eaten by vegans.
Bob: And/or B-12 deficiency.
Naz: EPA. That’s a long-chain fatty acid and one of the things it protects against is depression, which is one of the reasons vegans also have a higher incidence of suicide, clinical depression, anxiety attacks and panic
attacks.
Jinjee’s Note: I’d like to see the statistics/evidence for this statement.
Bob: Wouldn’t we all? At least he’s consistent in not citing his sources! (:-)
Naz: The thing about that is that only people with good digestion can absorb the EPA from the purslane. People with good digestion can do that. But people with less than average digestion can’t.
Bob: Or so he claims!
Naz: If a person doesn’t have the ethical considerations, then the healthiest diet might be to include some fish.
Bob: I tried that for awhile (raw fish), and my hair mercury levels, which had always tested zero before, went off the charts on the high side. That was over a year ago, and I haven’t eaten fish since. It will be interesting to see what my next hair test shows. I do think humans are biologically adapted to eating raw fish, but we’ve polluted the waters just too much to make that a healthy option.
Manis at Pangaia in Hawaii poisoned himself from eating too much fish also. He had actual symptoms — slurred speech, mental confusion.

Naz: Well the answer is probably yes, as long as it wasn’t fish from a polluted source that has mercury or something like that.
Bob: Well, those sources may be few to non-existent these days.

Rhio: And where would you be finding that source, pray tell?
Bob: Exactly!
Naz: You see, even though we all hear about all the problems with pasteurization, we shouldn’t forget the problems with non-pasteurized dairy. For instance, dying of the worst case of diarrhea you can possibly imagine! Because when you drink raw milk, there’s the possibility that it’s contaminated with E-coli.
Bob: Oh, good grief! Such scaremongering!
Naz: I would say the whole thing, and the reason is because the egg white has the protein, but the yolk has certain fatty acids that seem to be important for the brain.
Bob: They both have the protein, Naz! Look it up!
Naz: It seems to me that a raw-vegan diet, over a period of years, leads to severe nutritional deficiencies.
Bob: I don’t suppose the quality of that vegan food enters into it, does it? (:-)
Naz: The diet that you’re particularly mentioning there: where is it going to get that long-chain fatty acid that we’re talking about? Where is it going to get its B-12, where is it going to get its complete protein?
Bob: What’s this complete protein nonsense? A banana has complete protein!

Naz: They’ll read in an old fruitarian book that suggests that we could make B-12 in our gut, like some of the animals do.
Bob: We do, or rather our bacteria do, the same bacteria that make it in the other animals. Whether it’s enough in today’s polluted world is the issue.
Naz: In reality, not one human being has ever been shown to be able to do. That’s the science.
Bob: And millions of vegans from India have lived long lives before B-12 supplements were ever invented! That’s also science. However, it’s been noted that B-12 is becoming more of a problem over there now that industrial pollution is skyrocketing.

Naz: Not one human being has ever been able to demonstrate that they were living off the B-12 in their gut.
Bob: Nor has one human being demonstrated that it doesn’t happen. How would you demonstrate that anyway?

Jinjee’s Note: According to Dr. Gina Shaw and others, B12 is created in our bodies in our small intestines, which is where many nutrients are absorbed into the blood stream.
Bob: Our entire digestive tract, in fact, from mouth to anus, but mostly in the colon because that’s where most of the bacteria are. Of course, that also supposes that we have a source of cobalt in the diet. It has been shown, for example, that corn hybrids fail to take up cobalt from the soil, even when it’s present, but heirloom corn varieties do. Most of the food we eat in the US is hybridized. Is that part of the problem? We are getting away from the land and Nature in so many ways!
Jinjee: Storm has had no animal products in over 30 years and is not B12 deficient so either he is manufacturing it in his gut or he is getting it from the raw fruits and vegetables he eats or he doesn’t need B12 to be a fully functioning 54 year old who looks 30.
Bob: And if you go to his website, you’ll see what an animal he is!
Naz: So I don’t know that there are exceptions to the rule, but I acknowledge that there might be.
Bob: Ric Lambart, 23 years raw vegan, now 75, still going strong! I’ll bet Naz has heard of him too. I believe they have met.
Naz: You’re right, that’s usually what happens. However, if one takes their science and shows it to a nutritional scientist, the nutritional scientist will pooh-pooh their argument, and will show the flaws in it.
Bob: Or make up a few of their own!
Naz: It gets as bad that in a lot of these books that are used in the raw-food movement where it lists the amount of protein available in certain food sources, and a lot of those table are just plain old non-accurate.
Bob: This is very funny because there are no accurate tables. The USDA database is as good as we have, and it’s totally inaccurate, for the simple reason that its figures are based on averages — averages of wildly divergent sample analyses because the health and nutritive value of any given plant is no better than the soil it was grown in.

Naz: There are people that believe that there’s a whole bunch of protein in watermelon because one of the old raw-food authors used to claim that and put it in his book
Bob: He (TC Fry) was simply referring to the published USDA figures.
Naz: In the raw-food movement the problem is that you have a lot of pseudo-science, which doesn’t hold up to the scrutiny of actual science.
Bob: How much “actual” science is really pseudo-science? Half of it? Most of it? All funded by special interests with axes to grind and prejudices to uphold.
Rhio: There are amino acids in watermelon as in every other fruit and vegetable. As far as more concentrated protein, it is in the watermelon seeds, which can be made into a tasty drink.
Bob: I crunch them right along with the watermelon.
Naz: They just tried to discredit me, instead of deal with these realities of nutritional deficiencies in a raw-vegan diet.
Bob: He does a good job of discrediting himself, actually. Maybe he could try to put his material together in a more believable fashion by citing some sources for his most incredulous claims.

Jinjee’s Note: Actually, I’m getting lots of letters from people saying that this interview has affected them and that they are considering going off the 100% raw vegan diet.
Bob: There are always people looking for any excuse to indulge their old cravings, those who haven’t been on a raw diet very long and are unsure of themselves.
Naz: I want to with a challenge to the raw-vegan movement. Find us one really old raw-vegan. One. I’ve been in the raw-vegan movement for over twenty years, and I have never met a healthy, really old raw-vegan, who’s been on the raw-vegan diet for decades or anything like that. In other words, if by eating the raw-vegan diet, we’re going to live to be a 120 years old and be disease free, then how come, when you attend a national raw-food conference, there any isn’t old raw-vegans there?
Bob: I don’t know how raw and how vegan they were, but there have been a number of centenarian members of the American Natural Hygiene Society (now called the National Health Association) over the years, seemingly quite a large number for an organization of 5,000-10,000 members.
Aside from the fact that many factors other than diet enter into longevity, it’s partly a numbers game. I forget what the stats are for reaching 100, but it’s somthing like 1 (or a small handful) in a million. That’s among the whole population, 99% of whom are, or were, eating cooked, non-vegan foods.
Let’s suppose eating only raw, vegan foods for half or more of your life doubles that number, so instead of, say, 5 in a million, it’s 10 in a million.
Now what’s the raw, vegan population of the US who have been on that diet 50 years or more? 1,000? 10,000? Surely not 100,000! Maybe not even 100. But let’s be generous and say that there are 10,000 raw, long-term vegans out there, and 10 in a million (double the usual number) are going to make it to 100. That means that out of 10,000, that would give us exactly 1/10th of a raw vegan making it to 100! If we are again generous and round up, let’s say there’s one, long-term, raw centenarian out there somewhere in the US.
The next question would be, would we have ever heard of him? Maybe his other health habits are just as good as his diet, and he lives in a rural area, growing his own food, without access to a computer or the internet, and maybe he keeps to himself a lot because of all the ridicule he’s had to put up with in his lifetime for his strange diet and other habits.
Last I heard, Morris Blaze of California, was up in his nineties and might be 100 by now. He’s all raw, but I don’t know whether he is a vegan. Scott Nearing lived to be 100 and was a vegetarian, but may have used some cooked food and dairy. His wife Helen probably would have made it too if she hadn’t died in a car accident in her 90s. There are things other than diet that kill people!
Naz: Why has there never been a 90-year-old raw-vegan speaker at any of raw-vegan conferences?
Bob: Maybe he’s got better things to do, LOL! Or maybe nobody’s asked him.
Naz: Yes, that’s my challenge. And even if someone were to come up with one 90 year old raw-vegan, I think that my point is still made, because they’d have to struggle pretty hard to find that one.

Bob: It didn’t take me long to think of Morris, and I don’t know all that many people so far out of my age bracket.
Naz: I was born in the 1950’s, and so, I was shaped by the 1960s, and believe me, in the 1960’s, we had raw-food gatherings then.
Bob: Alas! I wish I had known about it back then. I was searching, dreaming, but didn’t come across the information and was too fogged out by cooked food and the “this is always the way it’s been done” syndrome to think of it on my own. Three million books in the Columbia University library, and I’ll bet they don’t have any by Shelton, Tilden or Trall!
Naz: Ann Wigmore, before her Shelton – all these people existed back then. All of them died.
Bob: Shelton, the eldest of 13, outlived all but 3 of his younger siblings and was one of those people Jinjee talks about who sacrificed his health burning his candle at both ends to bring the Truth to the masses. He was neither all raw nor all vegan, however, so I’m not sure why Naz brings him up. Ann Wigmore died in a house fire in her 80s. Surely you can’t blame the raw, vegan diet for that! It was a strange irony, considering she didn’t even use a stove, the cause of most house fires (along with smoking).
Naz: But he’s the only example I’ve heard people give. And then I point out to them that he wasn’t a vegan.
Bob: Well, I certainly didn’t try to use him as an example! (:-)

Frederic: 
1. The raw vegan diet is not a guarantee for health.
2. Eating 100% raw is not necessary for optimal health. If this is practiced, it should be done with careful planning.
3. Every vegan should be taking a B-12 supplement to insure optimal health in the long-term.
4. We shouldn’t believe invariably raw-vegan “experts” or what is written in books, because the information is often not accurate.
Bob: #2 was nowhere close to being proved by this interview!
Frederic: I wish to say that I’m personally not convinced that a vegan diet cannot be healthy. I think it depends on each individual. I personally have found benefits in including some animal products in my diet, and many others have found that too.
Bob: I have found during periods of extensive abstention from animal products (except for bee products) over the years that maybe once/month or so on average I have felt as though something was “missing” on vegan foods only, although I have gone as long as two years vegan in a row (again with the exception of bee products). Now I eat raw eggs or flesh more frequently, but it’s still not an everyday thing.
I have noticed that women seem to do better all vegan than men in general. Dr. Klaper has noticed that those who were raised vegan from birth tend to do better than those who were not. Perhaps the developing child’s body may come to depend on some of the hormones present in flesh and downregulate their body’s own production of them in some sort of more or less permanent fashion for some people. Just a guess. I know we are not all alike in our exact needs. There are hereditary factors too.

Jinjee’s Note: Storm has in the past taken groups of young gang kids to McDonalds and bought them all hamburgers, then taken them running in the heat of the high-desert summer in the mountains. He enjoys watching them drop like flies along the trail, as he preaches raw food to them.

Bob: Paul Bragg, ever the showman, used to do something similar. He, as a middle-aged adult, challenged a group of college-aged athletes to accompany him in a 20-mile hike across the dessert with their candy bars or whatever they wanted to bring along to sustain themselves for the trek. He would take nothing but distilled water and watch them all drop out along the way.

Jinjee: My Mother pulls out studies showing that smoking may be good for you. I don’t know how she finds them, but they are out there!
Bob: That’s “science” for you! They are also always coming out with studies showing how good wine, tea, and even chocolate are for you! One must take a look who is sponsoring those studies. “Scientists” are good at designing study protocols that will make their sponsors look good, and the clueless lay press eats it up.
There was an article in the local paper this week by the “health science” editor bemoaning how expensive colon cancer drugs are becoming, and how the “best” ones, the ones that extend life by about 2 years, cost $30,000 to take. Never mind that a few simple dietary changes that cost nothing at all, might even save you money, add up to decades more of life, and a better quality of life at that!
Jinjee: Americans in general are B12 deficient because of over-cooking of meat and pharmaceuticals which rob the body of B12*
Bob: There was also a study that showed auto exhaust depletes the body of B-12. So do mercury amalgam fillings.
Naz: Here, in the Eugene area, where I live, a man in the local raw-food support group died about two years ago. He was only in his forties.
Rhio: It’s unfortunate that the raw community, for the most part, does not have the holistic raw food oriented and naturopathic doctors it needs to help guide people should they get in trouble.
Bob: It’s also unfortunate that Nazariah never names any names in his diatribe so that the truth of what he is reporting can be verified. Since the guy is allegedly dead, what possible harm could come from naming him — if he existed in the first place?
His mention of unnamed raw food gurus with panic attacks and other problems has the effect of slandering every raw food guru by implication. If he has something to say, he should name names or not talk about it. He claims he is protecting confidentiality, but he really isn’t. He’s making people suspicious of ALL raw guru vegans instead of only the guilty parties. And he’s not giving them any way to defend themselves when he fails to state whom he’s talking about.
Rhio: Natural hygienists do not believe in using oil, and she had not used oil, except occasionally, for many years. The solution to this problem was several tablespoons per day of flaxseed oil and over a period of time her condition normalized.
Bob: I don’t believe using oil either, but I do believe in eating nuts and seeds, including flaxseeds. No itchy rashes in almost 12 years raw!

Naz: Yes, for a long time. He was one of the founding members of the raw-food support group there.
Bob: Do you know who he is talking about? Is this a real person? I went to the first Portland raw festival. Would I know him?
Naz: His doctor, when he died, told his wife (the man’s wife) that her husband had died of starvation.
Bob: That’s what they say about ALL raw fooders, that we’re too skinny and dying of starvation.
Naz: I was telling that story to a woman in Santa Monica who is part of a raw-food support group there, and she responded by saying: “Oh yeah, we recently had a guy who died the same way, and he wasn’t very old either. The doctor said that his body just starved for lack of nutrients.” Then I was telling another woman in Florida who’s member of a raw food support group there the same story about both these people, the one in Eugene and the one in Santa Monica, and she responded by saying, “Oh yeah, we’ve had two die that way.”
Bob: What’s common here? Never any names mentioned! Just rumors and innuendoes.
Rhio: Perhaps, as she {Jinjee} states, the people were doing the more restricted versions of the diet.

Bob: Or perhaps these are fictional people?

Rhio: I also recommend foraging for or growing some wild vegetables (usually called weeds) and including some of those in the daily diet.
Bob: Hard to do up here in the north in the winter.
Rhio: The body also recycles 70% of its protein waste.
Bob: The figure I remember is 90% (Fit for Life).
Rhio: The study that Naz cites in Vegetarian Times was comparing vegans with the other two groups, but it wasn’t comparing raw food vegans specifically. I think there may be a huge difference between a raw food vegan and a cooked food vegan’s health. I have not seen the article but it doesn’t seem to be a study that applies to the raw food diet.
Bob: Vegans are at risk for B-12 deficiency, and this is a life-shortener, whether the diet is raw or cooked, so I believe Naz is right in this instance.
Rhio: I don’t think most raw food enthusiasts would have a problem IF they ate a wide enough variety of foods, including fermented foods, seaweeds and pollen. Pollen, is from flowers but it is collected by the bees on their feet, so methinks there may be some bacterial action there which provides B12.
Bob: I don’t eat fermented foods, but I did become B-12 deficient even though eating lots of seaweed, bee pollen, and unwashed veggies. I resorted to supplements or raw animal foods.
Rhio: There are some groups of monkeys that eat all fruit and have no problems, (although I suspect that they eat green leaves too) but we must remember that the modern fruit that most humans eat is picked green and so has not had a chance to ripen on the tree and develop all its nutrient values. In a more health conscious and utopian world community, each family or block would have its own fruit orchard and therefore pick those fruits at the peak of their nutritional value.
Bob: Moreover, I don’t feel that temperate fruit is as nutritious as tropical fruit.

Jinjee’s Note: I have been present at such testing and the results were quite the opposite. It is known even by the medical community that raw-vegans score outrageously higher in anti-cancer nutrients than other people do.

Naz: Once again, Naz makes assertions with no references to back them up. Researchers did this and that. Well, where, when, to whom, and how can we read the study? Just like the rest of his diatribe.

Rhio: Or it could be that the body is not supposed to absorb the THC and eating raw marijuana protects you from its absorption.
Bob: Or it could be that Naz is making this up too!

Jinjee’s Note: I’ve read around 20 articles that oppose raw food because “many” vegetables are easier to digest cooked. They always mention only one nutrient, lycopene, in one vegetable, the tomato!
Bob: Strawberries and watermelon have way more lycopene than tomatoes do anyway, but again he doesn’t cite any sources for his claim that raw lycopene cannot be digested. In fact, it’s not even true!
Jinjee’s Note: Unfortunately there simply hasn’t been any scientific testing on this matter done, so this evidence he speaks of is non-existent.
Bob: Like the rest of his “evidence”?
Rhio: If Naz has the scientific evidence for his claims that a raw vegan diet is risky and dangerous for pregnant women, then he should provide the source, so that we can look it over for ourselves.
Bob: He’s presented no sources for ANY of his claims! At least he’s consistent. (:-)

September 12, 2004
RHIO -BRAVA as usual.
I shall discuss with you, further, my whole take on that when you come in Jan/feb.
I went to the presentation by Dr. Emoto (and catered it raw, vegan) on Friday night. He really addressed how the energy we send into something/anything expecially water changes the vibrational frequencies and he showed proof in details- so everyone involved in this debate now, ought to either read his books (as well as others) and stop spending so much investment in fears and instead invest that energy in practicing love on a cellular level- then they will understand breatharians- the thought that we need food is exactly that- i believe, a thought- based on our belief systems – and our thoughts are determined by our own spiritual vibrations during each lifetime, -which is why some people need to eat meat, some just fish as flesh, and some the way we opt to- raw, vegan. also it is the belief that death exists which has us so scared, if we believed that in order to shed the physical body, we need to let go of the density (which is why people lose up to 50 percent of water in their bodies at the time of their transition), it will explain why some people who shift to raw, vegan diets leave more rapidly than if they kept the denseladen, low vibration “food” intake. going.
i so look forward to continuing this conversation with you when you are here.
must go, as usual, in love and joy,
dorit
September, 2004
Hi, Rhio:
I, too, know of one who told my spouse and I about serious problems he had experienced, yet the next day, at a lecture, he disavowed any such things.
Personally, I have experienced dizziness and near black outs which began about 10 years or more ago after being on a strict Vegan, mostly raw diet, for nearly that many years. I started taking B12 injections until I learned the dangers of ingredients and stopped. I now take vegan B12 sublingual supplements. Previous to that, over a period of 5 to 7 years, I’d been on 3 major water-only fasts and several short ones (during which time I was learning how to heal a large ovarian cyst, and came close to death). Along the way I spent a year as a very strict vegan raw foodist. Dr. Joel Fuhrman, M.D., visited us to do a series of lectures I’d arranged for him. He suggested it could very well be a B12 deficiency (this was before all the info now available on B12 deficiencies), but a test would no longer be able to verify this after I started taking B12 shots and later supplements.
For the past several years I have experienced uncontrollable weakness in my legs. Particularly my left leg around the hamstring area. It usually occurs after sitting for some time, and there was a period we thought maybe sitting at the computer for hours at a time cut off the circulation where back of the leg connects with the end of the chair. I’ve dismissed that option, as the same thing occurs when I’m away on trips without access to a pc. My left leg still gives way at times, some times more than others, though I have not been able to identify why. There is no pain involved. Just awkwardness and spastic-like movement for a brief few seconds on arising. A few years ago I came across info re: a Study indicating success with such symptoms by taking massive amounts–like 20 – 25 times the normal dose of B12 for several months, and then easing off to a regular dose. I currently do that, although not consistently as I’ve never got into a routine of taking any kind of supplements, however my symptoms seem to come and go with nothing on which I can put my finger.
Note: The symptoms are not visible to those who don’t know me. It could just be attributed to imbalance and awkwardness when arising. And for all practical purposes I appear to be far more healthy and fit than my peers. The “leg” problem has also diminished greatly. After a few years with little exercise (due to a knee injury) I now run a few miles 3 or 4 times a week and bike on alternate days, and recently completed a Triathalon.
My spouse and I have also had a number of dental problems. Whether or not this is attributable to a mostly fruitarian diet for much of our early years as vegans is unknown. Since learning the importance of foliage about 10 years ago, we have greatly increased our consumption of that, and do eat seeds and nuts sporadically, moreso than in our early years.
With increased knowledge I am under the impression a few ounces of seeds or nuts a day or every other day might be helpful, however I think many vegans, persuaded by misinformation they might not be getting enough protein, over indulge on these and put their health in peril just as meat eaters do by consuming too much protein.
Cornell University’s Professor Emeritus, Dr. T. Colin Campbell, lead scientist in the most comprehensive study of disease ever conducted, concluded anytime humans consume more than 10% of their diet from concentrated protein, disease starts setting in. Seeds and nuts ARE concentrated protein. Their use, at best, is sparingly, I believe;-)
FWIW;-)
Gerry
October 8, 2004
Dear Rhio:
I’m just starting out on this raw journey (started for about 3 months in 2003), but because I didn’t have the knowledge of raw meal preparation (I was primarily juicing), I fell by the wayside.
I had just started getting your newsletter when the NAZ interview came out & read the whole thing (I was familiar with Jingee & Storm by ordering their e-books earlier this year).
I would suggest that Naz go to Rev. George Malkmus’ website www.hacres.com and purchase his book: God’s Ultimate Way to Health. Rev. Malkmus has the testimony of a couple that fits “Naz’s” challenge–that has been raw for about 50 years and they are either in their late 80’s or early 90’s. The husband recently passed a few months ago-but not before being a vegan that met this challenge–and the wife is still going strong.
QUOTING THE CHALLENGE FROM YOUR PART 7 SEPTEMBER 2004 NEWSLETTER:
“Naz: Yes, that’s my challenge. And even if someone
were to come up with one 90 year old raw-vegan, I
think that my point is still made, because they’d
have to struggle pretty hard to find that one.”
Even though I’m new at this, I believe that (as the man that responded to Naz) there ARE many that fit his criteria, but they aren’t superstars, they won’t be on websites and webchats, they won’t be at vegan and/or raw food meetings, conferences, etc. They are just plain everyday people. Thanks for listening.
-JCS
PS: Again, not knowing people personally, etc, we as people can never make a challenge that we ourselves are not or have not totally adhered to ourselves (again, this is NOT an implication on anyone as I know no one commenting). I am speaking in generalities. Furthermore, no one, group, etc. can challenge someone else to do research (on the above stated challenge) that they themselves have not done OR they are not willing to initiate themselves.

September 24, 2004
Hello,
again, people are taking the eating and food topic way too serious. The comments are unfriendly. The conversation should not be about Nazariah, the conversation should be about the topics discussed, free from personal involvement.
It is true that Nazariah makes statements that are not correct in some way. for example the B 12 issue. According to Dr. Bruker there is not enough B12 in any food. The B12 that the body needs is produced in the body itself. A healthy body can produce enough, a sick body cannot produce enough. Raw makes the body healthy again.
Ibrahim
Comments are closed. This very long discussion was sent out to my E-list in installments, so it was easier to read than this one L O N G post… but for those interested, I wanted to preserve it here. Rhio